Joey Stuckey 0:00

Welcome once again to the Stuck on Sound podcast. I'm your host, Joey Stuckey. And, you know, I am constantly amazed, uh, frankly, uh at the incredible level of guests that come on the show and just how interesting they all are. And today is one of my favorite people, uh, TK Tom Kidd, and he is absolutely such a neat guy. And um, boy, I'll tell you what, we're gonna we're gonna hear some, I'm sure, tall tales, but also uh I think you're gonna probably walk away with something you didn't know before. So, Tom, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

I'm gonna call you TK from now on, but uh please do, and you are incredibly way too kind. Thank you, my friend.

Joey Stuckey 0:37

Well, just put the check in the mail and we'll everything will be fine. Done, done. And you know, as a blind man, I can't tell how many zeros are on it, so it doesn't really matter.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

I got consider it gigantic then. Yes.

Joey Stuckey 0:49

Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. You you should yeah, and you know, I can't tell what the decimal point is either, so you just you know have have fun. Um listen, I want to tell you, um, you know, you're a real uh down-to-earth fellow. Um, but I I just wanted to let you know that uh when we met uh because of our service to the recording academy, um I I just knew instinctually um that you were someone that was gonna be one of my friends you know for the rest of my life. And also uh there's just an air about you of um uh of of competence and talent. I don't know how to explain it honestly. Uh but it but it what's really true. And and then um, you know, so I honestly didn't know much about your career, but I could just tell that you were legit. I mean, you you you knew what you were doing. There's a there's a comfort level that people who have worked hard to be good at their craft, you know, exude. And um uh, you know, and so so I didn't really know a whole lot about it. And so I I uh I just I ask you on this show uh because because of just my general impression of you that I've had for the past you know many years. Uh and then uh as I always do, I make everybody send me a bio because we have it for the launch page and you know all this stuff. And then I read about some of the things you'd done, and and I was like, wow, I was I was totally right, but also wow, I didn't know this. So so uh what I really want to I always you know we're gonna we're gonna talk about you know a few different things and and uh I I tell everybody ahead of time that this is a podcast for nerds by nerds, and it's uh it's totally about getting into the weeds on art, technology, and the business of music. And of course, the other, well, of course I want it to be entertaining and all that kind of good stuff. The other thing is um I do feel like it is my mission uh to combat uh ignorance wherever I find it uh and to try and enlighten people and give them a little piece of a little a little nugget or two of information that they can take away from the broadcast and use for the furtherment or betterment of their lives. And and and we I take that very seriously. So, you know, we'll we're gonna talk about many things, but the the thing I always like to start with and it is this is the origin story of the guests, because you know, everybody's path to being in this business of audio and music and art and all this kind of stuff is really fascinating. And and you just never know, you know, where it comes from and and all these all these myriad ways of you know becoming part of our industry. And and you know, people ask me, like, you know, how how did you manage to stay in the music business so long? And you know, my answer is too dumb to quit. I mean, I just you know, I mean, I do think this my wife, as you know, uh is an advanced practice nurse, and I do think that besides the medical trade, the music business is the other craziest business uh in the world. Um, but I just want to know, like, when did when did you figure out that you wanted to be in this industry and and what was it that led you, what watershed moment kind of led you to, okay, this is what I'm doing?

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Long story, but I actually I remember I remember in, I believe it was ninth grade, at the you know, the guidance counselor says, Hey, what do you want to be when you grow up? Fill out this piece of paper. And mine was I wanted to go to electronics school and work in a recording studio. Interesting. Both both parents are uh lifelong musicians. Uh mom has been minister of music at two different churches, uh Methodist Church and a temp and a Jewish temple. Uh she just retired from both, uh, one after 65 years and the other after 42 years. Amazing. Dad was a high school choral teacher uh and was minister of music at different churches uh throughout me growing up and and you know until not too recently. Um both retired. Mom has always done piano lessons for goodness knows how many kids. They both live in Knoxville, so half of Knoxville has learned how to play piano from their mom. That's great. But I I just grew up around music. I grew up around high school, well, around musicals and you know, being on stage. And I was I thought I was a drummer until I recorded a real drummer. I'll get back to that. Um but um I I just loved the electronic side of it. And that that always, you know, kept me fascinated, you know, more than more than theory, more than, you know, more than arrangements. And so I just kind of gravitated to that. My dad bought a sound system for his choir when I was yeah, maybe early high school. And you know, so I I always say I got into bands because I was the guy that had the sound system, uh, not because I was a good drummer. Um and so uh fast forward, um wrote a letter to the AES, beginning of my senior year, and just said, hey, where's where are, you know, how do I learn to do this? Uh got connected with a school here, uh, moved here to Atlanta three weeks out of high school, um, three weeks, I'm sorry, three months into that six-month school, which was actually not an audio school, it was just kind of a sampling of the music business. Um got an internship from one of my instructors and started working in a studio, emptying garbage cans and painting offices. And uh had incredible mentors there. Uh one of them, the first engineer I saw work there, was Will Egliston, who is uh Gentle at USA now. Oh wow. The other was uh had a had a long history of both Atlanta and uh grew up kind of at the village in Los Angeles working on some some incredible records. So I had great mentors from the very beginning, very encouraging, but but you know, kept me in my lane where I needed to be. Um got thrown into the fire really quick there. That was a small studio, uh two-room, 24-track studio in downtown, down Simpson Street, no longer there. Um got thrown into the fire quick. You know, three months in or so to the internship. Went in one Friday and the engineer chief said, Oh, you got a session tomorrow. I was like, Oh, cool, what are you working on? He's like, No, no, it's you, and it's a you know, 30-piece choir with a full band. Oh my gosh. Okay. So, you know, I'm sure I stepped on my feet and and but I figured it out. Um moved from there to uh after a couple of years of emptying garbage cans and doing gospel sessions, which were incredibly formative, um got a call from Tom Wright, who had Cheshire Sound, who I believe was the second largest facility in the southeast at that point. Um needed a chief engineer. I've always been big at setting goals, uh, both short term and long term. And one of my early, early goals uh after I got an internship was to be chief engineer of a multi-room facility by the time I was 21. Wow. Um I'm not even sure I knew what that meant or entailed, but it sounded awesome. So the call from Tom Wright was around my 21st birthday. Wow. Um and the first session, like literally, we sat down in a meeting one day. He said, Okay, here's how much you'll make, here's what I expect, blah, blah, blah. Great, when do I start? How about tomorrow morning? You're gonna start mixing an album for Peebo Bryson. Oh my god. It's like uh okay, never, I mean, you know, other than uh you know the popular records that everybody had heard, I didn't know much about Pebo. Sure. Um that was awesome uh and incredible experience working with him, you know, that a high stature artist. I really only had a little bit of experience at crescendo um in those first couple of years uh working with high you know super high profile artists that have worked on the Gladys Knight and the Pips record, and I was horrible. Um uh but I'll and maybe I'll come back to that. Maybe I won't. But um anyway, did the Pebot record. Uh Peebo is still a dear friend and and client to this day. 40 years later, I hesitate to say the number. Don't don't don't do it. Just saw him a couple of nights ago. Still dear friends and and and clients. Um that was a really pivotal time uh in Atlanta because it was just before the the LaFace boom, as I call it. Gotcha. Um so but we were working on our you know, REM records and Charlie Singleton cameo. Like there was there was some really cool records, Georgia satellites, keep your hands to yourself. Yeah, yeah. All around that same time there. Um then LaFace showed up, uh dropped into town. I had through the work with Pebo, uh, I got a referral to the LaFace guys and uh and also Cheshire. Uh so they came there and we started those early LaFay sessions. Uh Bobby Brown, Johnny Gill, my my um gosh, uh first pebbles record. Um I remember Baby Face. Um it was and I I described that as you know, the UPS guy would back the truck up and unload platinum records once a week.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Uh it was it was an incredible time.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

And it was a formulative time for Atlanta because that was that was truly the beginning. Um the maybe four four or five years into my Cheshire time, um decided to go independent. Uh little face guys kept calling, they were working all over town. Um that evolved into uh one of the writer or one of the producers with LA and face was Daryl Simmons. And he was he was known as the silent partner because you know he he stayed in the background but co-wrote all those hits End of the Road, like ridiculous catalog. Yeah, ridiculously talented, talented friend. Um we were in a session at Doppler one day. He said, Hey, I'm getting ready to build a facility. You interested? Yeah, sure, sounds like fun. Um he said, I've picked a designer, but that's all I got. We're gonna figure the rest out. So uh we spent uh some while finding a building. We spent a year and a half in design for the building, and then in April of '96, uh we opened uh Silent Sound Studios. We were right next door to Dallas's studio, uh DARP, and downtown Atlanta. And that that opened to gangbusters. We we had incredible success there, uh, him as the owner and me as chief engineer. You know, I uh it was it was a wonderful experience in so many ways, but you know, from the beginning, it's like you know, he he was he was very very vibe and fit and finish, and I was the technical side of it. So you know the the the framework of it is I'll pick out the carpet and the drapes and you got everything else. I'm like, sure, sounds like fun. So I got to hand pick everything, um, you know, from who was building the wires to you know what they were wiring. Um wow. That's great. Um nine years into that, I bought the studio from Daryl, continue to run it. We had a 20 almost a 25-year run of you know, three or four hundred million records all over the world. We were the we were the home for for Elton for 20 something years. Um that I didn't know that. How cool love class. So that's that's both the origin and and up to you know a few years ago.

Joey Stuckey 12:21

So yeah. The the interesting thing to me, um you know, did you now I you're you're obviously still still out there doing records. And uh are you are you uh in your own place now, or are you just uh like going to wherever you need to go, or what's your what's your strategy in the evolving music industry?

SPEAKER_02 12:43

Uh I bounce around a lot. Um when I sold the studio, my decision to sell Silent Sound, which was three months before COVID, thank you very much. Um that that worked out well.

Joey Stuckey 12:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Um I I just I I missed the time making records. You know, I was I was definitely spending more time on admin and and you know, people management and facility management. I'm I'm I'm very hands-on if you know something needs fix and I'm not the guy that picks up the phone, I'm the guy that goes and fixes it. So gotcha. Um, you know, it took a took a substantial amount of time away from from my passion of making records. So when I sold the the facility, I took my time building a mix room uh out in Marietta. Uh just me not recording anybody, you know, so it's it's literally just post and mix. Um same timing. Uh my dear friend John Driscoll Hopkins from Zach Brown, uh who lives five minutes down the road, opened a probably a 2,500 square foot live room uh at his house, and it's an incredible sounding room. It's like, all right, well, I'm just gonna record everything there. So I do bounce around to other other places, but that's my primary go-to for for tracking, uh, mixing and post is in my spot.

Joey Stuckey 13:56

So it's it's interesting because you know when you you had a a goal of being chief engineer by 21, um that is highly impressive because um you know, my experience, well, first of all, as a brain tumor survivor, I was too sick to really focus on anything but survival until I was about 17. And uh and so then you know I got involved in music and all this stuff. But but uh but you know, I I made my first record when I was around 21 and 22, and it was a painful experience because nobody, because I was so young, and I was playing with the only musicians that could keep up with me, you know, in the way that was pleasing, uh, I discovered after after trial and error, uh, were in their forties. And uh and so that was good. I had their experience to draw on and their they had their 10,000 hours, you know, and and and and you know, that kind of thing. But it was also bad because they're like those kids, you know, calling all the shots and what does he know? And um, and the truth is, um all I really knew at that point was what I wanted, whether it was right or wrong, was something we could debate, but but uh you know it was it was it was just a a real a real weird you know position to be in. And and I came to the idea of having my own studio uh because as a blind person, I said, okay, you know, this is before I could afford to have employees and before I was married, but like as a blind person, you know, transportation is a real difficult proposition. There was no Uber, you know. Uh and so um, you know, I was thinking, what is it that would allow me to be in the music business but bring people to me um so that I don't have to go to them? And I thought, oh, a studio would be ideal because that doesn't seem like, oh, we have to go to the blind guy. No, you have to go to the studio. You know, like it's it's just part of it's just part of the you know what you did. Um so I'm so fascinated of all of that to say, um, I'm so fascinated that you had this chance at 21 to make a lot of decisions and to be put in a very uh you know uh serious position of of making decisions and and all that kind of stuff. Did you know um so I'm just wondering like how much how much hand holding was there and how much did they just turn you loose and let you go? Like what was the what was that experience like? Because that's really amazing to me.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

Great question. And and there was I I like to say there was probably a lot of hand holding. Um Tom Wright, who was the owner of Cheshire, uh incredibly smart, technical guy, fine engineer, um, all all the things that that you would want, but as a as a business owner, you know, as as I found later on, uh that absorbs so much time. So, you know, as much of a quote unquote chief engineer, uh, like my business card said, back when we had business cards, uh I still do. Yeah. Um it I really he was the chief engineer because you know he was we were taking apart gear, uh, he was taken apart and literally redesigning. He had his own line of microphones, you know. So, you know, respectfully, he he was probably the chief engineer. But I but I was I was you know number one lead, whatever you want to call it. But um but yes, incredible, incredible experience seeing what you know, maybe what a chief engineer should be, being able to watch, you know, the way he moved uh technically, uh, and the way he tended to, you know, tended to issues. There was a problem on a you know, on a module on a desk, we'd take lunch and he'd have the as Darrell Simmons would say, he had he'd have the hood up. He'd go in and start taking stuff apart and you know make it right before we got back from lunch. So, you know, that's that's what a real chief engineer does.

Joey Stuckey 18:05

So that's that's yeah, that's a really interesting point because that is one of the things that that is very difficult where I am in in geography, you know, geographically speaking, uh, there is no technical infrastructure here of any kind. Um so you don't have technicians here that work on consoles, and and I can't see to do it. So um it's it's a real it's a real challenge. I gotta bring someone down from North Atlanta or Nashville or whatever to to work on the consoles and blah blah. So that's that's you know, being able to have that knowledge of keeping things running, especially if you're a big, you know, analog gear fan, which I am, and I I think you are too, um, you know, that's that's that stuff's gonna need some love and care. It's gonna, you know, you're gonna have to you're gonna have to clean it, you're gonna have to rewire some of it, you're gonna do all these things to keep it running. Um and that's that's a real challenge. But I you know, I I believe when I teach students, because I've taught at the university level for over a decade, music technology and design to program and all this stuff. And um I do believe in the idea of throwing your students just into the deep end and watch them swim. But I also never set them up to fail. So I would never ask them to do something I thought they could not do. Um, but I would ask them to do something they weren't comfortable doing. And did you did you find that you had that experience? I mean, it sounds like you it sounds like you were pretty stoic about the whole thing, like, oh what makes uh people brising, uh, okay. You know, like did it did it make you nervous at all? Did you did you have any doubts, or were you so young that you that you you were you were too young to have any doubts? I mean, yeah, how did that work?

SPEAKER_02 19:51

Young and young and stupid is certainly certainly lines right up there. Um it helps you. Naive, but but still, I I don't know that I necessarily thought about you know the the guys at Crescendo or or or Cheshire or wherever having my back. But um yeah, I mean just kind of somebody I I was doing a record, somebody used the word cavalier one time. It's like God you just just drop in and you know just erase the word and or something, you know, live analog tape, whatever. Oh yeah. It's like I hadn't really thought of it's I just you know just show up and and you know do what's needed. Um it's about serving the artist.

Joey Stuckey 20:34

Um well that that is very true, and there's a lot of people that don't understand that.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

Um go ahead. No, I was gonna say those those guys were just you know, I'm I'm one that that can watch a situation and go, oh, that's how they're supposed to do that. And you know, and uh I'm I'm very competitive, so you know, I I definitely want to want to do it, you know, three times as good as what I just saw, you know, the best way to do it was. I love it. And you know, Tom, for example, uh got to the Cheshire one day. Tom said, Man, hop in the truck, we're gonna go over. He got a U-Haul. We're gonna go over and get a console. Okay, great. I don't know what for, but sure, let's do it. Um we went over somewhere in Brookhaven, picked up uh an old vintage knee desk. My favorite took it back to the to the shop. Um he he also had a uh his lead tech, Tom's lead tech was Greg Lamping, who had a a long history of uh work with MCI, installed desk for the BGs, like incredible, another another incredible example and and wonderful human. Still friend. Um but pulls a Neve desk into the shop, start you know disassembling it. And this was kind of kind of before kind of early days of Neve modules and and modules in general out of desk getting racked. Uh he had a Built for it. Short story long, we used it for a while. Michael Pinehorn ultimately got a hold of it, took it to the West Coast, and that's the sound of Soundgarden Records, Corn Records. I mean, that that desk that Tom Wright pulled out of a garage in Brookhaven. Wow. And it's actually that that rack is up for sale. I saw it on Analog R recently.

Joey Stuckey 22:35

He's actually my guest tomorrow. Great. Tell him I said hi. I will. I will. Are you so do you do you still collect uh analog gear in this day and age?

SPEAKER_02 22:46

It's bad, Joey.

Joey Stuckey 22:48

Listen, I need an intervention with microphones.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

I mean I got a microphone problem. Oh me too. I mean, I yeah.

Joey Stuckey 22:55

I'm waiting well they're they're your ear substitutes, you know, but they're they're they're like a crayon box. You want all the flavors. You want to you want to have, you know, uh you want to have uh choices, and and I I really do have a problem. I mean, there there needs to be an intervention. There won't be. Um because my wife actually empowers my my my my deficiency here. She uh I I I I've told this story before, but I mean I was working one day in in in Chicago at a studio um with a with a band and and the the engineer there the was saying uh uh oh this this uh Royer 122 is even better than the 121. I was like, I highly doubt that. I will I will be the I will decide if that's true. Let's put it up. And so we put it up, and I was like, oh, yeah, I really do like this. It's it's it's great. It's it's you know it's a little different than 121, but it's in the same family. And I just went on and on about how great it was. And so Jen, my wife disappeared for a little while and and then she came back. So I just ordered you once you stop talking about it. Stop drilling about it. But anyway, but I do, I mean, you know, my other goal, and I I say this half tongue in cheek, but in deep in my heart I mean this. Like, my goal is to die with one more microphone than Sylvia Massey. That's like my I've never met her, but I just but you know, I'm gonna I'm I'm gunning for that collection. Um but but you know, the the the thing that's so now you talked about being a technical guy and watching these guys disassemble desks and stuff like that. So you is that something that you do as well, or did you did you start following in their footsteps to be able to repair the consoles and and keep things running, or did you stay more on the on the engineering side?

SPEAKER_02 24:32

Um I I will always be an engineer producer um first. But the yeah, you know, some of it was out of necessity, but I I also I would like to think I'm smart enough to know my limits. Uh and I've important I've got some incredible phone numbers. And it's like, hey, you know, bail me out of this. I've gotten it to this point, and you know, I you know, but you know, I I can I can get there a fair amount of the time. Uh I I still enjoy it. You know, we we had a session um uh a mixed session at Silent, and the the engineer sent me a note and said, Hey, the EQ on you know module 56, you know, something way down on the end of the desk. Uh you know, I don't know about the low end on that EQ, it's not really responding. Well, that was the beginning of it was probably desk was getting close to 20 years old, 18 years old, had been on the entire time. Um it's like, okay, caps are starting to go in this thing. So we we spent about two years um you know plenty of time researching parts and and all that, but we spent about two years recapping that desk, you know, a couple of modules at a time. You know, pull pull a module out, pull all the daughter boards off, stick it back in, make it look like it's still there, but it's just powered off, um, and do that while the session's running. Um wonderful tech uh engineer, great engineer uh from my old studio, Randy Warnkin, uh started the process with me. And I don't know that he had done a lot of soldering work at that point, but by a third of the way through, it's just killing it. It's like here, you do the rest. Like he he he ultimately did the majority of that desk. But um, but yeah, it was it's it's kind of that. It's like, okay, there's a need. Um, and you know, for whatever reason, I'm gonna jump in there with both feet and figure it out and do it better than it could be done.

Joey Stuckey 26:24

So yeah, I mean I I have a similar philosophy. I mean, I I can't I cannot see to to do the detail work, but I am good at compensating, and um, and I am good at uh working around problems, and the client never knows that that there was a problem to begin with. Like that, you know, I just I stay happy and positive and uh hang on one second and take care of something. You know, I don't I don't get I don't get worked up. I just make it work.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Well, and and that that's that's like number one best trait for an engineer is like you know, the place is literally on fire. And it's like, hang on, guys, let me let me fix this one thing, I'll be right back with you. You know, the artist never knows. Yeah, you never pull them out of their flow.

Joey Stuckey 27:04

That's well, I mean, you know, honestly, as a producer, um, you know, I mean, we're really psychiatrists. I mean, you know, the if we keep the session happy and productive, you know, and not let anything, you know, get us down. I mean, that's that's probably 80% of getting the record right. You know, you know, it's and that so you know you said in earlier, and I don't I don't know that I believe you, but you said that uh you weren't a very good drummer, but your your your musical skill as a producer, where does that, where does that come from? Did you go to school for for theory or did you just pick it up? Or do you, you know, how I mean, you know, uh Rick Rubin says he doesn't know anything about music theory and stuff like that, which I find hard to believe, but I guess I guess it's true if he said it. So I mean, what is your background from a musical standpoint, not just the sonic, you know, the sonic landscape, but from a musical standpoint, what is your what is your background there? How do you how do you fill in those gaps?

SPEAKER_02 28:00

I I think Rick Rubin is probably the world's greatest psychiatrist, by the way. But he must be. Back to your previous point. Um grew up on literally grew up on stage since I was, you know, I think I was in my first musical at two years old. Oh my gosh. In carousel. And like I I'd go from, you know, my mom doing obviously the the the church work and the piano lessons. So I'd sit in I'd hear piano lessons going every day from the time I get home from school till dinner. Um we'd go to um I'd go to rehearsals, choir rehearsals. So I'd I'd from literally infancy, I was around big choral arrangements. My dad was was very, very forward thinking in in you know how he challenged his choirs uh and you know, and even extracurricular stuff like like high school musicals that you know were not required for him. He just had a passion for doing it. So I was just around it. You know, you you hear those things enough, you hear those chords, you hear those mistakes, you hear kids, you know, that that can't put two notes together and and know that they're clashing to you know to incredible performances, and you know, you just kind of figure it out. So for me, um that that's my musical side. You know, my my my saying I was a drummer, and I thought I was a drummer until I recorded a real drummer was uh I was 18. Uh the Georgia State jazz band booked a session for at Crescendo. Gary Hamm was the engineer, and uh they didn't have the drummer at the time, is my understanding. So they hired um a local drummer uh to come in and do the date, and he started playing for you know just for to get levels, and it was just like, oh my goodness, this guy. And come to find out he was he was my age, and it was just like, oh shit, I don't y'all can have these sticks. It it's Sonny Emery. Yes, Sonny was that guy, and I I give him a hard time, he's the one that made me stop playing drums. But uh, do you still play? Do you do you have a you have a I've got my original old Ludwig 1972 Ludwig uh Pearl Kit, but um and and a collection of snare drums. That that's as an engineer, not as a drummer. Understood. But um no, I don't play, but but to see that level of talent and and just ease and you know cavalierness of just walking and going, oh, this is just what I do, is like I would have to spend you know the next 20 years, 24 hours a day, to even think about being that good, and and would never achieve that as a drummer. Yeah, yeah, I gotcha. Uh it it was but again, I always knew I w I wanted to be an engineer. The the drumming thing was was always secondary to you know to the electronics and the and the technical side.

Joey Stuckey 30:51

So well, do you have a um do you have a sort of a feel for what you think is important today in the modern music business? Because there's you know, there's a lot of home studio stuff that that can be done there. I'm I'm all for home studio, you know, pre-production. Um I think that saves a lot of time. And um, you know, you can come in with a ghost track or whatever you want to call it. Um and and that that's helpful. But I mean I mean, you know, there's a lot of people saying, okay, big studios are back, a lot of people saying big studios are dead. And you know, what what what's your perspective on that? But and and obviously, I mean, I know that you sold your big studio uh now uh because you want to get back to making records, and that makes a lot of sense to me because I do spend a lot more time than I thought I would doing paperwork. So it's like so I get that. Um and my studio is not huge, but but anyway, the point is, I mean, you know, I what what do you think is the modern landscape, you know, uh for people that are are getting into the business now? Um, you know, what what's what is what's out there for them to do? It's it's different than when when you started, and it's definitely different from when I started. Um you know, the the landscapes have changed three or four times since then. So what what do you think what do you think is going on with with the with the future of the music business vis-a-vis you know, production big productions versus small productions?

SPEAKER_02 32:17

It's uh it's that's such a multi-layered answer. Um there will always be a place for a proper studio. Um you know toward the end of my ownership, the there was a lot more of the and and we were we were very concierge-based facility, but but it I noticed more and more bookings that that were you know as much about an event space as as you know as as a studio. Interesting. Okay, you know, they that's just they they needed a place, you know, a a sonic place to to get together to not necessarily create, but you know, just just gather. Um and you know, and and collaborate, you know, to to build up to you know to the next thing. Or just hang out. Um but there will always be a place for for big studios. Um the the cost of them, you know, it isn't getting any cheaper. That's for sure. But uh it's it's such a I'm I'm I'm going back and forth in my brain here because of the multi-layer part. I I want to jump to it, it should it should always be someone's go-to. A formal studio should always be someone's go-to for uh for training, for to see how it's done. Oh yeah. YouTube only gets you so far. And you know, there there's a lot of folks that uh that think that that's gonna be enough. I saw Dave Pensada, he recommended a 512C on a such and such. Great, you know, have you heard that? No. Exactly. But you know, you go into a room and you know, if you're smart, you know you know to say as little as possible, uh, and and listen as much as possible, yeah and and absorb uh uh you know the in in a bigger facility I uh you should be able to see uh multiple different workflows, different people coming in, different ways to approach the same drum kit. Um those are invaluable. You you can't you can't teach that and that's that's certainly my my uh uh uh encouragement to anybody trying to get in. It's like you know, first go go spend six months, go spend a year, unpaid internship, you know, do the crappiest work. You know, I had a another friend that owned a facility in town that he'd hire an intern, and uh as soon as they you know signed off on the on the paperwork, he'd hand them a toilet plunger. Many people know that story and know him. Wonderful, wonderful human. I do not disagree with that at all. But you know, get in there and and learn the business uh of of how a studio runs, and I think this probably applies to a whole lot more than the music business or studios, but get in from the beginning, see how everything runs, see what's a pain in the ass, see what you want to do, see what you don't want to do, and then carve your path based on based on what you see. But you know nobody's gonna come looking for you at home when you've got your YouTube thing and you put your thing up on the you know on the SoundCloud. Nobody cares.

Joey Stuckey 35:40

Yeah, I I I really I really agree with that. I'll tell you why, because anyone can do it, and you don't know how trustworthy the information is. And you know, obviously if you get it from Dave Pensado or somebody, you know, that you know, he he he he obviously has something to impart. I don't know that you can impart a lot over, you know, a single YouTube video or whatever, but I mean, you know, I've had countless guitar students come to me and say, Oh, over the weekend I learned a sequel. It's like, well, actually that's an F, but you know that's cute. And it's just like you you you you trusted the wrong source. I mean, you know, and that's why, you know, as you say, like being around it's the the the best way. I I I I would take it a step further and just say, like, be where things are happening, because that is that is really what's gonna give you a career versus not. Like that's you know, being being where things are happening is really the the key. And whatever that means. I mean, you know, if your town doesn't have a happening scene, I've I've always had to create what I wanted, you know, for myself. I've I've you know, I never never had what I wanted in place. And I never had, at least in my early days, I never had anyone willing to let me come into the studio and observe. Or I mean I was willing to pay for the time. He was like, hey, can I can I buy buy some time just to get in here and learn? And people like, yeah, no, you know, I want to do that. You know, so so I always just sort of built what I had. I just sort of, okay, well, you know, I'll just have to uh build my own thing and do my own thing. And uh here in town, you know, there was uh I got frustrated with the idea that there were lots of bands uh and there were TV stations here in town that wanted to have bands come on and play uh on the weekends and stuff like that for to spice up the 6 a.m. news cycle. Uh, but the audio was abysmal because these these TV stations were not geared to handle music. Yeah. And so I was like, I am so tired of being on television and sounding just awful. And and and uh so I went to one of the stations and said, Look, I I've got a studio, you've got the cameras, let's get together and do something. And and you know, we did. So we made a show that I think lasted like three years or something, I forget exactly. But you know, and so I booked all the talent, I interviewed all the the guests, I uh recorded all the um, and it was it was no studio trickery, it was just live, you know, what it is what it is kind of thing. And uh we were very efficient. We get we get four mans in and out four hours, uh uh or uh or a little bit less. And um, so I mean I always just sort of had to create my own thing. But if you can't later in life, uh I got to to hang out with some really awesome people like Alan Parsons and and just different people that I could learn from my friend Ross Hogarth and you know, all these all these different cool people, and I would go to master classes and stuff like that. And you and you know, if you come away with just one new idea, it's totally worth it. Um but I love I love I love that. And you know, my heart is in the big studio space. I mean, that's just whether it's reasonable or not to have one, that's just what I want to do, what I want to do. So that's what I do. Uh so so you know, it's just like I just I just kind of made the decision like, well, this may or may not be a good financial decision, but it's it's what's gonna make me happy and keep me working until I fall over. So, you know, that's kind of the thing. But both equally is important. Yeah, I mean, but but now you said to me in one of our many sort of conversations, um, and I'm I'm paraphrasing, but it I something along the lines of uh you always felt like you were a better engineer when you had a console involved. Um something something along those lines. So do do you do you do you enjoy, I mean, do you have a a console in your space? Do you how much do you do everything in the box? How much do you rely on analog? Like, you know, there's this is this is the debate that starts brawls at audio conferences, but but uh don't make me go over there. The the well oh my favorite one, which I am just terrified of, is what's the best microphone? Like, oh dear god. I was like, hey, um, yeah, so there's gonna be a fight up here, and I want to get out of the way because I can't see it coming. Uh, but um my answer to that is whatever gets you to the sound you want fast enough. 100%. But but you know, I love them all. As I said, I have a problem. But but what are you so what are you doing with with your gear lust today? How's what's what's going on in in TK's world with all the with all the gear? What's what's what's your what's your go-to for making records this these days?

SPEAKER_02 40:15

Definitely analog. Um I have it uh out at Hopkins Studio uh that I mentioned earlier, brighter shade, uh there's a excuse me, there's a small desk, um, but it's it's a lot of outboard. I've got a Neve Rack out there, he's got wonderful selection of outboard. Um so from a tracking standpoint, that's the majority. Um I definitely am I think a better and faster uh in a tracking date on you know when I've got everything in front of me. Gotcha. Um and I'm probably I'm probably faster on a mixing date as well. Um I do I do actually like the records that that I'm putting my imprint on now more, or I like my imprint on the records that I'm putting on now, putting out now, um, maybe more than I have some of the console records that I've done. Um I I don't attribute that to as I primarily attribute that just to ear, ear development. Um and I'm and I'm in my own world and I don't have the distractions of of either a facility or being in someone else's facility where you know folks are coming and going and this and that. I can I can think when I need to think. Yeah. Um but I'm I'm all in the box. I got racks of analog gear here. Uh I I rely on outboard for compression, a lot of compression, uh, a lot of reverbs. Uh you know a 480, uh hardware 480 still sounds better than the you know than the best um emulation of a 480, although there are some great ones out there. Yeah. Um so I I I tend to go that way. Um lots of lots of analog inserts, but I'm I'm in the box. Uh summing, mix bus summing, 100%. Uh that's that's actually a a really integral component, and it it imparts some of that, you know, some of that com combining that a desk does. Um, you know, the the sonic imprints you get from a desk, right? Just all those, you know, hundreds literally of paths coming together to you know those two channels. Um analog summing does that for me. Uh, and I've I've got a couple of different options on that that I go back and forth with. But um I I like me some tube summing. So that's me too. That's absolutely that's the thing. I mean, I've I yeah, uh it's I'm I'm not a template mixer, uh, so you know, I'm uh other than other than just general routing, uh kind of a ground-up uh you know craftsman approach to treating a record the way the way that record speaks to me. Um my wife I I draw I draw a direct line to something my wife said years ago about a designer that could walk into a into an empty room and see the finished product, you know, the paint color and the and the oh the the sofa thing's gonna be over the all that. It's like okay, well that's that's what music does to us is you know we we hear a demo or we hear a lick or we hear a whatever, and it's like oh, I got 974,000 ideas about that. Um so to be able to you know sit down and and and work through those however you get there again to your to your previous, you know, however you ideally you can get there the fastest. But um it's a beautiful thing to be able to create in our own environment. So there's there's places for both. There's places to or there's times for both, uh being a facility versus being your own world.

Joey Stuckey 43:53

Well, that I I I will confess um that I do not miss the hassle and the destructive editing of analog tape. Like I I do not miss that. I like the sound of analog tape. I I just don't know that that the effort you know is worth it at this point. I mean, you know, it just it just I I like it, but you know, the reels are expensive, the machines need maintenance, the there's you know destructive editing and I hate winding tape anyway. It's just so annoying.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

So here's here's where here's where the fight breaks out Joey. Yeah yeah yeah hit me. And and this came from this actually came from Brendan O'Brien who was a name dropping who was oh he's a fantastic engineer. He was a client for for many years. We were we were his B room next to Southern Tracks which is of course where he he made all those incredible records. But he spent a lot of time with us and and he was on a panel one day through the academy and and there was a wonderful conversation with with him and Steve Lillywhite backstage and they were they were talking about the decision making process of analog versus well of analog tape versus a digital workstation. Right. And you know he he described it as starting with you know this many ideas and he put his hands out and he he said you know as we go along we have to because of real estate because of you know just technical restrictions that's exactly media restrictions we have to make decisions along the way. And we build it down and he he kind of you know demonstrated a pyramid you know down to you know here's the two channels that we all you know all these decisions come into. But when we're working on a DOW we start here and you know the pyramid went opposite you know the ideas just keep coming and the decisions get kicked down the road and you know so that part of analog that part of analog I do miss. And of course we can approach you know DAW work uh workstation sessions the same way but we don't because we have unlimited everything. So I I do miss that part. And it's like well yep that takes gone you said you could do it better and you totally cannot because your voice is gone now and we got to figure this out tomorrow. Oh my God I know. But so the the the pressure um you know there's there's also the component for me of and as silly as it sounds rewind time there's there's time to there's time between you know the end of an idea or the end of presenting an idea to doing that again. You're rewinding the tape you're having the conversation you got time for a drink of water instead of spacebar three spacebar three space bar three like and just pounding singers and when when that is interesting when workstations first came out man I it was I was watching people just beat the snot out of singers and they didn't have a time to take a drink of water like or or formulate a thought. Give me another one one more time one more time it's just like God bless so um that that part of it you know and and that's that's long lost now but um coming from an analog world you know there was always that build in that extra time I I had a I had a producer I was so excited as a 19 year old to be doing this particular session he pulled me out in the hallway he's like I need you to do you're doing great you're you're really doing great I need you to do one thing was like yeah what what I gonna do what I got to do slow down let just chill out because I was so anxious you know to to make this incredible impression and I was fast and it's like no sure let everybody it's a vibe you got to so nurturing that vibe um is is important and it's you know you got to do it different ways when when everything is instantaneous as it is now I think that's a beautiful point and I had not thought of it.

Joey Stuckey 47:48

And um the interesting thing um I mean you know I complain about streaming all the time uh but I stream music you know I I mean you know I'm I think human beings are you know somewhat will take the path of least resistance and uh it's just so easy to say oh yeah I can um that that guitar takes okay uh let's save that do another one and then you you you go down the road like oh my god there's 400 tracks here it's like how do we how do we figure out you know how do what we and then we don't even remember why we chose that one I was like oh my god what did we why would we what did we think there why what what do how did I make that decision what was I thinking it's colored green but I don't remember liking that one oh my god and then well yeah and then my thing is just like you know so many tracks and and so you know and and um and I mean in one way I will say control or command Z is a beautiful thing. That that's uh I do like that. I like the fact that I can make a mistake oh I did not mean to do that and and you're you already was able to save yourself. But you know there is you're right. I mean there when I started I was I as I say I was doing two inch tape um at first and um you know as you say there's real estate you don't you don't have a uh you don't have a choice and I had never thought about that rewind time but that's a wonderful point. And it's one of those things that really we should try to build into our philosophy uh of of taking taking a minute to do it because it's it's kind of like the other problem I have where uh I basically eat too fast because um uh you know time is always money and everybody's in a hurry and you know I go gobble gobble gobble and it's gone. Yeah and and really and that's not good for you. You know you need to you need to slow down you know you need to and you need to appreciate where you are and I think the older I've gotten you know the more it's become about vibe and less technical for me. And that's you know at first it was all you know polar patterns and and uh frequency response and uh all this and and all that stuff's very important but um you know you can also just sort of uh uh figure figure out a vibe and and move the microphone you know walk around the room and say oh it sounds good over here let's stick a mic over here right again I mean so there's there there is a lot to that and there's some people uh like Jack Douglas who you know uh still does a lot of tape but he he can afford to uh I mean you know uh but it but I I um I do I I'm I guess the other thing that I would add to your to the question I ask you uh to be uber nerdy about this um is what are you if you're using you know a lot of outboard gear for character which is you know what we do we love tubes and we um and all these things um how do you how do you make that recallable because in today's music business people want to make really minor tweaks and they're used to being a pull up a DAW and just go click click and here's your new mix.

SPEAKER_02 50:52

So how do you balance that you know revisions and stuff but at the same time keep your analog uh character there's uh great question um I I still have analog doc sheets um I have a camera like everybody else does um but every every mix pack you know has has final documentation you know as a uh as a as a digital PDF uh drawing of it um the other part some of this uh I really got from from Daryl Simmons uh back in the in the early silent partner silent sound days was uh Darrell was a hundred percent vibe and and did not want to be technical because it was all about the creativity right and and his catalog shows that absolutely but if if he liked a particular module and and there were three or four sounds out of that module that he liked he bought three or four of those modules and they just stayed on that setting. Ah and you know when it was time to go to the bell thing out of the blue box you know you flip over to that channel and then you magically have the bell thing. So there's a there's a lot of that for me. I keep a uh like a pair of of Lexicon 480s you know a lot of the stuff is in duplicate or triplicate uh and you know can go to some of the harder to find pieces you know TC1210s and that kind of stuff um if if they're not a set it and forget it um it's it is minor changes um and I do have um I finished an album uh two or three months ago and I still have the the pieces of tape I'm looking at the modules now uh the pieces of tape on there from the different settings for the different songs and I you know okay was that we're recalling that song today let's go back to that um but yeah my my James Kingsland or Kingsland um garbage ideas uh boxes are are are that uh you know salt to taste I don't I've I've got a pair of them I'd love to have 25 of them because I would treat it just that same way. That's awesome.

Joey Stuckey 52:56

That is that is really cool. That's an interesting that's really interesting. So yeah you know for me I I I became uh an analog person uh initially just because it was easier as a blind person to to deal with because if you are using digital technology you can't read that the and and it's screen dependent uh as to where you are and what the function is and you know you got soft keys that change function based on the screen you're on but you can't tell what screen you're on you know the third knob for the left always does the same thing on my on my knee strip or whatever um so initially it was like it was a thing of like accessibility uh and and then you know of course uh I became a fan of the sound and and and the and the vibe of it and and all that so but but it is you know it's one of the things that we that we fight up about you know not fight about but fight fight to to find a good medium when you are sort of an analog you know uh sort of uh devotee if you will uh it it it's it's one of those things that people people want you know they want that instant recallability because they're that's what they're used to is that just like oh I can just click a mouse and I've made a change and here's the new mix. So there's a lot of there's a lot of um there's a lot of interesting people doing interesting things and and and to to kind of to kind of make that possible. But um I I pretty much the way I I'm gonna start stealing your idea uh because I just now for the first time hired a sighted assistant um and the reason for that is that it took me a long time to find someone that had my work ethic and had my sense of joy at all times. And uh because uh Joey stuck he's a drama free zone. So uh uh you know I'm I'm happy to be alive and and that's the joy that I bring to the sessions and and if if you can't be joyful it's not the place for you. So it's you know and uh and so he has all these and and he's also very very good with the computer and and really good eyes and you know fast and and uh uh with with all the different uh digital tools which are harder for me that they're possible but not but but harder so I mean it's it's nice to to have that uh idea so I'm gonna I'm gonna start having him take pictures because a blind man taking pictures is uh I mean it's it's you know it's it's it's not quality control is what I'll say. I w a a friend of mine uh that I actually had on the podcast uh it said to me that he thought it would be interesting to do an exhibit of of blind photography and uh you know I mean if he I told him if like look if you pay for it I'll do it. I mean if you you know if you if you if you if you get someone crazy enough to agree to this exhibit uh I will take the photos but anyway um I think that's a brilliant idea to have that map that you could go back to um and and to include it in your include it in your in your deliverables I mean that's that's brilliant that's a really good idea um and I didn't I don't know why I didn't think of that before probably because I don't think about cameras very often uh but I I think that's really brilliant now do you do you have a watershed moment where you knew I mean I know you you you took you you've taken to to this field like a duck to water I mean you just had a a natural affinity for it and I sensed that the first time we met I just I just I picked up on it having never heard anything you've done I just I was like damn TK knows what he's doing um and and uh you just have that aura so I know that you were just said yes to everything and you know kind of kind of got him there and just and just figured it out which I think is the sign of anyone that really is going to be successful they have that ability to to do that when they're called to do something. But do you have a watershed moment at any point in your career that you want to talk about that really solidified for you like yeah I I'm totally doing the right thing. This is this is what I'm supposed to spend my life doing and and I I this is wonderful uh proof of that. Do you do you have like a watershed record that you did or a or just something that happened that you're like, oh this is this is incredible.

SPEAKER_02 57:07

I I made the right call I've I've definitely had watershed moments but I I I've never I never questioned it and like ever and part of that was I wasn't smart enough to have a backup plan. Yeah there wasn't anything to fall back on. I mean I No I know what you mean you know I I got out of high school barely and um and you know went to this technical school that gave me a a piece of paper on the wall that you know that nobody else would look at and go oh you did that not a thing. So um it was just always what I was supposed to do. Now watershed moments of records there's absolutely you know moments of sitting in a in a room with you know Elton John and Phil Ramon doing a Spice Girls record. It's like oh yeah this is this is fun. I like this you know but uh Aretha Franklin it's like yeah I'm just yeah this is this is an Aretha date another Aretha date. You know it's moments like they were not worthy. But it's moments like that that that you know make make the the the pain in the butt you know three weeks you know of of being in the weeds with the console upside down and people calling needing things and whatever you you get to the end of those dates and you make it through and people are happy it's like okay that was that was awesome. Let's let's let's do this again tomorrow.

Joey Stuckey 58:36

Yeah yeah well I I love that I mean I you know I take great joy in almost in almost every record not I will not say every record there's some that I'm like oh dear god how did I get talked into this um and you know I have I've I've got a client that shall remain nameless but um they're in a different state uh that's one of the magics of the of the internet that we can collaborate uh in different in different states and they are very specific sort of micromanagey clients which I wouldn't mind except that they don't know how to tell me what they want which of course makes it hard for me to provide uh so I don't mind being micromanaged if somebody has a roadmap um this is what I want this is what I want this is what I want okay no problem can do but when you can't explain the roadmap um and but but you also want to micromanage uh that's one of those days where it's like you know blind and drunk are bad ideas but I might start daydreaming well okay so but but do you find great satisfaction at the end of you know one of those to make them happy or whatever when they're like you know what that's exactly what I had in mind even though I told you to just make it more you know orange you know that's the you yeah so yeah I mean this this well this it's actually just yesterday he said uh using some expletives I shan't repeat but he's like this is awesome this is exactly what I wanted I'm like oh thank god because I was running out of ideas I didn't tell him that but I was like I was like oh my god but but no but you know it it's true the other thing I mean one of the things that's you know when when the client listens to you as well um that's helpful because I did a record that was very it was very joyful I mean the music was uh the the players were incredible uh the the the the music was joyful it was it's a gospel record but it's a funk record it you know it's a funk record but I mean it's it's it you know with all these like you know gospel lyrics and um but the problem was I was not the producer and yet they wanted my opinion on stuff so I was in a weird position uh uh of of you know not wanting to say too much uh because that wasn't really the role I'd been hired to fulfill but then also wanting to be helpful so uh one of the things that I had to sort of explain to them and I'm wondering if you've ever had this experience um is you know I wasn't part of the arrangement process and these gospel players are really really good but they weren't really listening to each other so they played every lick they knew all the time like there was no on top of each other yeah there was no there was nothing cut out you know there was no okay we're gonna feature the piano here but then the the bass is gonna take over here and you know there was there was no arranger everybody was just playing full out now the the the cool part of that was from an energy perspective it was great but like from a mix perspective it was really tricky because it was you just can't get all that stuff into focus. I mean there's just you know there's too much happening and so I told my client I was like look I you know I wasn't part of the arrangement conversations that wasn't you know what you hired me to do uh you guys came in with these songs you know theoretically fully formed and here's the issue and I was like so I've got to make some stuff like supportive I everything cannot be in perfect focus which is impossible on any mix but in this particular case I was like you know I said so to me what drives this music and makes you want to get up and and praise is the bass the drums and the vocal and everybody else is going to have to be you know ornamentation you know right um so you you know and and we made it work and and it really it really turned out great and you know I you know you're you're at a level um that I am not at like my clients you you've made a lot of records you know for record labels for artists that do it for a living at a high level and you know most of my clients are some you know sort of sort of mid-level uh uh at the beginning of their journey um you know uh doing it full time but um you know not not not super super famous or whatever you know and and so you know the budgets we have for stuff like this is is pretty pretty limited typically um so one of the reasons one of the things about working with Alan Parsons um was that I got to see what a real budget looked like like he could take he could take forever to make a decision and I was like I was making decisions like uh we should like immediately hey we gotta do this he's like well we'll think about it and then we ended up coming to the same conclusion um and Alan was extremely gracious to me and kind to me and allowed me to participate you know and and and actually made me feel like a valuable person to help and uh he actually sent me a message um that said it's on video so I can prove it uh that that uh he said I I had the best ears in the music business which is not true but I'm not gonna argue with Alan Parsons about that and why would you and why would you do that and that's like that's like my Grammy moment right that that's my Grammy. Alan Parsons says I'm cool. You know and so but my point is like you know how do you you know how do you how do you handle that um those kind of situations where you you have you I guess I I guess to say at your level have you found yourself having to save the client from themselves? Like have you you know have you had to help make some decisions that that uh you know that that really that that or do you find that at the level you're playing at that the people are are are super educated and you don't have to do any hand holding I mean what's the you know I I've always find that such an interesting question. Like you know the more the more time that you are able to be an artist, you know, does that does that help or is it really helpful to have someone uh on the other side of the glass that helps you get out of your own head. I mean that's you know I I I find again that the most of my job is being a psychiatrist.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:52

Well I I think that kind of depends on on on the level of confidence and the level of ego um yeah you know on on the other side of the glass. You know it's for for me and I maybe I'm maybe I'm telling telling secrets I shouldn't but you know for me if the the best way my ideas um or or elaborations on other ideas can come out is if it's the actually the artist idea or if you can convince them that it was their idea. Yeah yeah hey you remember with it was like 30 minutes ago you sang that thing that where you went up at the end but then you trailed off try that one more time and they're like I don't remember just just try that. And of course you know it's great because it was their idea.

Joey Stuckey 1:05:37

Yeah it was you know not so much. So well you're able you're able to you know you're able to guide them. I I I I take your point that you're able to sort of guide and and um and and that kind of thing. And and it's it's really you know it's such an interesting business um because you do find people that have um that that have a uh uh I guess I won't say overinflated but have a have a level of of confidence that can get in the way of of being productive. You know, that's like, you know, when it when when kind of basically like cats. I mean, you know, my cat thinks that any idea that he has is a good one. And if it's my idea, he's not as keen. Um so if if he jumps in my lap, that's appropriate. If I pick him up, eh not so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:22

So but but that that ego and confidence is is such a is such an important part about most of the rest of of that craft.

Joey Stuckey 1:06:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:34

You know, knowing you know knowing how to how to utilize that.

Joey Stuckey 1:06:38

Well it's like Mc Jagger.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:39

I mean Mc Jagger from a melodic standpoint ain't the greatest singer in the world but man the swagger you know just the confidence that he that he pushes and and there was a in in back in the Cheshire days uh I was doing night sessions with goodness knows who and uh Mick Jagger actually came through that day for a voiceover or something you know something quick and everybody that was there would not shut up out about what a nice kind genuine man he was. Yeah it's like oh and that that was one of my first you know somebody at that level just that is so cool being oh you know being received that way um you know so again knowing you know knowing when to apply that and and when to when to step back you know that is exactly I have said that exact thing uh because when I perform uh it's my stage and and I'm the most important thing on it and then as soon as the show's over you let all that go.

Joey Stuckey 1:07:42

You get rid of it. You just don't you don't need it anymore. But it is interesting. I want to I want to conclude I I I want to do two things before we wrap up I want to first give you a chance to say anything that you want to say that we haven't touched on but I also want to ask you my other pet question besides origin stories. And this one does cause a lot of brawls. I have gotten a lot of hate for this question not from the podcast guests but from people online. I want to know your thoughts on AI because I have some very definite thoughts uh but uh and I'm I'm quite uh vocal about those but you what do you what do you think about AI? I mean it's it's it's our new disruptor you know it's it's the it's the player piano it's the gramophone it's all these things it's but it's uh it's I do think it's a little different uh than some of the previous disruptors in our business. How do you feel about it? What do you think about AI?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:35

That's really interesting that you said it's the new player piano I never thought about it that way but it's I mean we've we've said that the different inventions was going to ruin the music business since time immemorial you know but uh we found ways of living with it will it ruin it it it's it's gonna it's gonna drastically change the the business side of it from you know from a label from the from the way a label is able to make money um it's not just AI but just natural evolution has already changed drastically the internet has changed drastically um you know a label's approach to um to who they have signed and the way they sign and who they pick to sign and the development or sometimes lack thereof you know compared to what what you and I grew up with. But back to AI I I think it's another tool. It's certainly a tool that we you know nobody has any idea um what that's going to look like a year from now maybe a week from now but um but as a as a creative tool it's incredible um used properly it's incredible in my eyes and I I typically use the example I was doing a record um Ruby Vale on the Sulphonics uh album will be out uh I believe shortly but uh there was a there was a song toward the end and it's like guys we'd I'd love to have a choir on this it was it was you know I believe I believe I was the one that said that however however the idea came into the room and we were we were late enough into the project and it's like you know we all we all know what getting a choir into a into a big room cost and it's like you know what let me let me give something a shot before we before we go down that rabbit hole so um I I actually came back to my spot uh sang three maybe three four different parts I'm not a singer but um sang three or four different parts melodimed myself to be good enough and then stuck it into an AI engine um you know stuck each part into you know th I picked three or four different voices whatever it was uh brought that back in and you know it's it's not a featured you know we are the world choir in song but it but it's it's definitely a textural element that you you know is is intentionally acquire and it more than served the need.

Joey Stuckey 1:10:58

So I don't know that you know again for where we were in in the project um I don't know that we we would have you know gone down the choir rabbit hole but but the creative idea was able to be used uh be able to be brought out you know for a for a month long subscription to two different you know whatever whatever it was I picked um yeah so from that standpoint god we we all need to have those tools and and be you know proficient with those tools uh just like we are with any other tools um yeah how it gets integrated into plugins you know the the actual inception of hey well uh uh uh of of songwriting and I'll I'll we'll use a different example um I've got a Grammy U mentee who had an idea for a song one of the in our original meetings he said you know he he's not a he's not an engineer but is fascinated and wanted to learn more about it said you know let's get together and we'll we'll actually you know start to create this song idea that you have he came back in a later meeting and said guess what and he had he put his idea he he gave enough of a description of how he wanted this song to feel here's the lyrics this type of singer whatever and was able to actually get a demo of his idea out he would you had zero intention of releasing it making money off of it or whatever but as a creative tool he was smart enough to to spend the time and dig in and learn how to make this thing um spit out the idea that was swirling around in his head yeah I I I you know during you're I I think you're usually in LA for Grammy week um like I am and I go to NAM as well and and uh end up staying out there for you know three weeks or whatever and um there were a lot of you know I I attended a lot of AI symposiums uh I think well you were at one with Will I am I think you were there for that one actually um and and so I mean he had a lot of interesting things to say smart man oh big time and uh and the other thing was you know I a lot of people are using it as as a sketchpad and uh you know a lot of people are using it for organizational uh you know helping basically sort of like a virtual assistant um but I I do I feel um you know when it comes to some of the tools uh and I'm a big fan I'm not gonna name any specific uh software companies but there are some software companies that have AI tools and the tool says something like uh might I suggest uh where you start your levels and my answer is no I don't I don't need that thanks but no I I'm I'm I'm I put in my 10,000 hours I'm I'm a professional and I'm gonna mix the record the way I want to mix it I don't need your input it reminds me of the Microsoft I don't know if you remember this but it reminds me of Microsoft Clippy uh everybody hated Clippy and you know Clippy was always in the corner trying to say hey can I help you with your punctuation no I don't I do not need your assistance to put my commas where they go um so so I mean you know I do sort of feel uh annoyed uh that that a lot of people are saying what the head of Sunos said basically was music's too hard and it's too hard to learn an instrument and I don't want to do that but I want to make music and uh so everybody should be able to do that. And and I was just like you know I think the struggle of bringing an idea to fruition is what gives it a lot of its magic and a lot of its spirit and a lot of its you know heart. And uh and so I'm not sure you know what value that sort of solely AI generated idea from a a non-music professional has. But the other thing that a lot of people aren't talking about is that the actual law is not keeping up with the technology as usual. We're always behind. But in this instance uh we can't really afford to be behind anymore because it's changing so fast and being implemented in so many places that you know um the there there needs to be some sense of what can be used and what can't be used, you know, uh vis-a-vis copyright and that kind of thing. So we we we talk about that a lot on this podcast because I think it's important. But um you know I I I don't I don't object to AI completely I mean I think it has wonderful applications. Like I mean I would be thrilled if AI could and and this is happening by the way I've been I've been preaching this for about six, seven years and it's finally happening. AI is becoming a significant tool for um people that have a disability it it it especially in the blind uh market there's a lot of things going on with like meta sunglasses and all these things where AI is starting to be able to describe the room around you and help you get to the door and all these things um that that are wonderful. And so for AI to be able to be my eyes and to be you know uh help me integrate with the visual world is a beautiful thing. And it's something I've been you know wanting to see happen for a long time and I I really appreciate that. And you know by the same token I can get behind it being a tool. I don't really like the idea of you know non-sentient beings making art as much as you know you know I'm not real thrilled about that idea. It just doesn't appeal to me. But but you know as I say I I think the big thing is I think we have to talk about it um because it's it's here it's not going anywhere and we've got to figure out how how to integrate it in our world in a way that is you know ultimately beneficial to to to man. So that's that's kind of you know it's it's not something you can wish away and I'm not I'm I'm not a Luddite I don't I don't hate technology you know you know I I'm not I'm not opposed to it. But I I do like I say I do prefer to mix my own records without uh the computer getting involved with telling me where to start my levels.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:08

Well and and to that you know there was uh a a a friend mixer uh probably five six years ago um you know said kind of kind of saw this not saw this coming but but saw you know saw the future of AI uh you know in in our business and it's like you know I I'm definitely looking at at other options here uh you know inside the the the creative part of this business because you know it won't be long before we can just throw all the all the stems or all the tracks in you know into a thing and it mixes it you know ten different ways and you know it's like I don't think that's ever I mean in in in the upper certainly in the upper tier uh of the industry I can't imagine that that it gets that far past you know needing a human because you know they somebody sends you the same files they send me they're gonna get different records as you know any of our that's exactly right and and that's the beautiful part about this is you know it's it's so it's so you know how do I how do I see this this wonderful creative idea being presented um you know and not hey okay that's great make it you know make it feel more like an Eric Clapton record send you know that's that's not that's not a vibe and yeah yeah I think you know what my my son I my son's I I I I listen to his perspective on you know on on the world uh because it's a very different very different view and and he's he's over accentuated in recent years how much his generation he's late 20s um how much his generation uh gravitates toward authenticity and and that it's it's a common thing and you know even even when that word doesn't come up that's where he's leaning and whether it's an experience or or the you know an idea or and that that's really stuck with me on that that that generation that's growing up with this stuff you know right in front of them. Yeah um you know is is able to seek out authenticity uh especially in music but but art and life and you know having their you know as as you and I would know their their BS filter and it's you know their AI filter on yeah and really really gravitating to that so that that restored faith in the future.

Joey Stuckey 1:19:43

Yeah no I mean there there's there is I'll tell you the the the generation you're talking about um there's there's a lot of there's a lot of wonderful things uh about them and um you know I there's there's some things like um things that that were taboo uh for us like talking about mental health and you know it's not taboo anymore it's you know it's the people are able to talk about it and and I think what I've been seeing in a limited way um you know and and I think it's gonna just get bigger is people kind of going back towards the boutique experience or the authentic experience you know vinyl records are are our hip again uh my God you know you spend 40 bucks on one now I mean you know Joey Joey can't you know charge that for his vinyl records but but you know if you're if you're I mean my I I can sell mine for 20 and I'll I'll I'll get some bites. But you know there if you go to Barnes and Noble or you go to you know uh you're gonna pay 40 bucks for a vinyl record you know and uh uh my buddy Ross Hogarth just gave me one that he's uh one of his clients put out and um and I was like well I appreciate you give me this because uh it would have cost me 40 bucks if I wanted to buy it and I you know so I was like right but but it it's it's I I think that there's I think there there's a there's a yearning for for something you know for something that has has a has a content that has actual you know meaning and struggle and heartbeat yeah yeah sonic characteristics that are I mean because you know technically speaking um I think CDs you know have the you know have they have a better frequency frequency response than vinyl but um vinyl's more fun to listen to I mean it's just you know it's just it's just more fun so I mean it's interesting that that things in our business uh that and I guess this is kind of to my point about AI there are things in our business that are actually not perfect and therein lies the charm I mean you talk about the B3 Orion I mean that you hear that thing grit and grind you know you know I'm saying and that's that's but that's that's it that's the sound. Yeah and and it's it's the same thing with vinyl I mean you know technically speaking uh it's it's got a more limited frequency response than a Blu-ray uh but but it just is a much more interesting listen. So you know the the the it's a lot of things in our field that like are technically imperfect that actually you know kind of lend to the charm of of the record or that you're trying to produce but I I you know AI is here and uh I I think the big thing and Will I am said this I'm I'm not saying it as well as he said it but he said you know essentially you need to own the AI you need to own the content you need to own your likeness. And when you do that, you know you can create some things using AI that are that are more equitable as an artist and and and that kind of thing. And you know how we move from the subscription or the utility model uh that all the streaming services use or that the AIs use, I don't know because the the the big companies know that they this is how they make a lot of money. So I don't know I don't know how you're gonna move them away from that from that model. But anyway um I think that's great. I think your perspective is really spot on and and uh I I do I think you're right. I think at the at the lower levels of the of the industry where you've got entry people in the entry phase um you know uh can't afford to really uh you know go to a big studio maybe uh um you know some guys some guys are saying now I I don't really agree with this one I mean so there was a guy that at NAM that said that he's not a good singer and so he used AI generated voices um you know to be a better singer and um and so that he could impart to his client more kind of like his idea for the songwriting aspect of things. But you know I went to Berkeley uh the second time I went to school and um and we heard because you we heard some some demos of of famous recordings and uh you know some of these demos were not that sexy. I mean they you know they were pretty raw and I've sort of evolved over the years the idea that for a publishing demo not a not an artist demo but a publishing demo like you know less is more and you know the the more that you can let the singer or the artist that you're pitching to envision how they would do it the better off you are. So I don't know that like more perfect vocals are necessarily helpful.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:14

I'm not sure about that but anyway it is an interesting we said that when autotune came out and we heard we heard a Nora Jones record where she bends into something it's like ah anybody else would have fixed that that's awesome the way she did it though. Oh I love it. All the way back to demos you know demos you used to have to go in and and you know get your get your buddies or whoever or hire studio musicians to get an idea out and then Mitty came along. That's true. Oh well now we're down to one guy one girl that's okay it's it but your your word disruptor is is it's there it's true it's there.

Joey Stuckey 1:24:50

Yep. Well let let me let me close with this my friend and thank you so much for your time it's been a joy really I just wanted an excuse to chat with you. But same but same but it's been a joy to to have you on the show and and to to share your perspective is there anything you want to impart to uh anyone that's uh crazy enough to be in this business that we haven't talked about stay the course uh if if you're supposed to be doing it you will be um yeah don't don't let life's distractions you know pull you away from from what you're ultimately supposed to be you know I I I could have drifted you know two or three different times but um again I didn't have a backup plan because I didn't ever feel like I needed one.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:34

I just this is just what I'm supposed to do. And you know you you work for free for so long and you know maybe something comes out of it but the next thing you just stay the course uh it it will if if you're supposed to be doing it it will pay off and if you're not you should take every experience that you gain along that path and utilize it toward your next adventure because if you're not learning something you're not paying attention.

Joey Stuckey 1:26:01

Beautifully said I I am so um so grateful for that perspective and and you know it's it's funny because my I'm I'm the same way in the sense that I never had a a backup plan uh for a career path which is unusual for me because um as someone that's a you know blind brain tumor survivor with a myriad of challenges uh that I still face um I like backup plans I like to have backup plans to my backup plans because I've never been able to do things the same way as anybody else and so I feel uncomfortable typically speaking if I don't have at least three or four options that I can that I can pivot to. But when it came to you know the creation of music through sound through through musicianship through all that stuff I never really thought about it. I was like well you know this is this is what I'm this is what I'm doing. I was like this is this is it you know as long as I can afford to get a cheeseburger at the end of the day we're doing all right there you go. TK my friend what a what a joy what a what a privilege and uh thank you so much for your time and um you know man I'm gonna I'm gonna come one day and uh sit in the room and and absorb absorb your work one day I'm just gonna sit there and and um I won't stay mostly quiet um I'll do I'll trade you I'll do the same well that sounds that sounds fair and I'll make it you you gotta wear you gotta wear dark sunglasses to be at be in my studio you're gonna have to sold no weird the same limitations I've got I love you my friend I appreciate you I love you too buddy thank you so much for having me I genuinely appreciate you take care much love