Joey Stuckey 0:00

Welcome once again to the Stuck on Sound Podcast. I'm your host, Joey Stuckey. And man, you know, I I am so fortunate to know so many interesting people. That is the great thing about being an artist and traveling and speaking and doing all these different things. It's the people you meet. That's that's that's the actual real blessing of the whole thing because very few of us in the music industry are rich. So we are rich in in other things besides cash. But I have a dear friend, an absolutely brilliant person with us today to talk about many, many things. And it is Professor Ellen Franchese, and I am so grateful to have her here. Welcome, my friends. Good to good to have you here.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

It's lovely to be here, Joey. Thank you.

Joey Stuckey 0:44

Well, you you were uh my professor uh uh at an online class I took at Berkeley, and we became instant friends, and um and I just thought that so many people um need to hear your voice uh in in in our world at the moment because there's so many disruptive sort of elements in uh in in in art. You know, I I of course, you know, music is what I do, but of course, there's you know visual art, there's and there's there's uh there's there's you know novels and there's all kinds of things going on. And um, and you're just such a brilliant person at like you know, framing and understanding things and thinking about you know art in profound ways. And and I think you would agree with me that uh I take being an artist very seriously. I I think it's uh a privilege but also a responsibility to to talk about things that are important as an artist and uh to to introduce new ideas into the social consciousness, to preserve history, to do all these things. And so um I just was so excited to to have you come on and talk about several things. But before we jump into that rabbit hole, I want to I want to talk to you about how you found um because your the class you taught was was a class about artistry and finding your voice as an artist, which is so important. And um I just wanted to talk to you about the journey that led you to to to to be an artist and then to teach and to help others you know be the best versions of themselves they can be. So I wanted to kind of start with that question that but it's got an origin story, you know, what how did you get where you are?

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Well, there's no one timeline here. Yeah, I would say, but the uh my mother was the one I think responsible for many of the things that you mention. She was a visual artist. Um, she wanted to be a visual artist in terms of career, but at the time she grew up, she wasn't allowed to do that. So she studied art at what used to be Mass College of Art. They have a new name, I don't know now. But um she and wanted to be a fashion designer, actually, but she ended up doing music education, right? And particularly working with autistic kids, you know, through visual art. So she was grateful for what she did. However, you know, she, as I said, she wanted to be a creator only, you know, and be able to explore what that meant. She was a painter primarily and a weaver as well. So um she also taught art classes in our house. So I got a lot of benefit from that. I saw not only how she was with students, and she was the same with me. There was no right or wrong. Uh, curiosity led everything, and this was a good thing. She would give feedback if in terms of skill, if I wanted to understand options in terms of shaping something or whatever. But as I said, there was no right or wrong. I could be as messy as I want. And that lack of boundaries and the honoring of the individual curiosity is a really profound thing that gets often subverted in a society where uh competition rules related to status, external validation, you know, all these things that derail us, perfectionism ultimately, and all this derails us and really uh builds a wall between honoring ourselves as who we are, whatever that may mean, what we value, what we see, what we feel that we can give ourselves permission, what a terrible word to even have to use, to uh create something. And so I knew new bound no boundaries whatsoever, you know, in that way. And so I felt very comfortable, whatever I was doing, whether it was visual art or dance or theater or writing or you know, anything. I I was really free with that. So I never worried about what people had to say, other than to learn humbly and gratefully from other people. And just learning about art too, you know, how to see and what seeing means, to be really quiet and spending time with something. And the same thing with that way, we could apply that to listening or anything else, right? And so that was a real gift, too. So I lived an artist life in so many disciplines, you know, growing up. And I and I saw what it was to be a teacher was doing the very thing that my mother did, you know, to help people feel that they could honor who they understood to be themselves. I never sought to have my own voice because I felt I always had it. I never even considered what my own voice was. I just created, you know, but that doesn't say that I'm not like when I write a poem, I can evaluate it, stand back. And I love wrestling with language and that kind of thing. And that's not a dishonoring, it is a working through and finding out more about my intentionality in relation to what I'm writing. So I think it's a really good balance between being able to be free to say whatever I want to say and whatever way I want it, as well as having the capacity to stand back and check in with myself and my intention and to cobble editing together and all of this. And so it's a beautiful journey. And this is the kind of thing that I've always hoped that I could offer my students, you know, that kind of thinking, that that curiosity is something that we have to honor, that we're all artists and artists that transcends all borders. Do you know, as a scientist, as an anthropologist, as a do you know, there's no objective, subjective. Everything is subjective as much as we wish to say that something is objective. It isn't, you know, history is not objective. It's if we could talk to a million people, we still would not get the full story, whatever that means, of a particular event. And so I think that needs to be seen too, that we are all artists, we are in the same plane of existence. And to really use our art not only for ourselves, if it offers us something, and so many artists will say that it does, it certainly I would say helped me through difficult times, though not consciously. I just it just did, you know. And uh, but also if I felt like I wanted to share it, I could share it freely, do you know, and not worry about what people would think. And if they liked it, fine. If they didn't like it, that's okay too. It's kind of like you release a new life into the world and it goes about whatever it goes about, you know, and and that and that's a fine thing, do you know? I know people talk about legacy and you know, all this, and I understand it, I truly do, but I think that we can have a richer relationship with ourselves as artists if we don't buy into what people think in a way of judgment. And will this be a timeless piece? And do I have an original voice? We say what we want to say and we we release it, you know, and I think that's it. I didn't, yeah. I listened to a Paul Simon, this is relates, a Paul Simon interview, and he had, I don't know, when he put out his seven psalms, but he talked about that very thing when asked about legacy. I mean, we still I still adore songs from whatever it was, the 60s, uh beautiful songs. Oh my gosh. Anyway, uh, and and it's just like that. Like he doesn't worry about if people will like it and 10 years will they like something, whatever. He just says that you know, it every every piece of art has its life, and if people embrace it, they do. And if they don't, then something else will come along that they're that they embrace, and that is it. So he has this kind of different view than a lot of artists, but allows him to be free when he creates art. And I think that again is key for all artists.

Joey Stuckey 8:39

So absolutely, absolutely. I mean, and and and interestingly, uh, as a young artist, because I I always felt spiritually compelled to to create music. And when I you know, my first my early life um was uh survival because I'm a brain tumor survivor and you know I'm blind and I have all these uh fun health challenges that that I you know learned to deal with. And I manage them and I do what I want to do by and large. Uh so but but it wasn't until I was late teens that I was healthy enough to really think of anything else besides you know basic survival. But when I did, um I remember my first record came out and I was 21 or whatever, and uh it was a very, I think the first real, or at least for me anyway, the first real big creation uh where other people are involved by necessity. You know, you got your drummer, you got your whatever, uh, besides just me. Um the first one was tough because nobody trusted my nobody trusted my voice or my vision at at first. And uh, and so you know, I had to sort of advocate for myself. It's like, look, I you know, you don't have to like it, you just have to play it. You don't have to, but I had a girlfriend at the time, and one of her friends came up to me. And why she felt compelled to do this, I'll never know. But she's like, her friend came up and said, I don't like your music. I said, Okay. And she's like, That doesn't that doesn't bother you? I was like, I don't care what you think. I mean, it's yeah, you know, it's like you don't have to like it, it's fine. I mean, it's you know, you don't you don't have to find it of value. Uh it's I find it of value, and and you know, I I believe in in putting in the you know, putting in the work and working hard to make it, as you beautifully said, like the most authentic, you know, representation of what I intend. You know, that's that's the work that we're putting into it. You know, that's the 10,000 hours. But it's I've I've also, you know, you said something to me in class, and I don't know if you'll remember this, but it was a profound moment for me because um I had been trained in um marketing. And um, and so you know, we talk about targeting our audience and using you know demographic information and psychographic information. And you, you know, the the the goal was has never been for me to like have a hit record per se, but I do want to be able to eat. You know, I do want to be able to make a living off the art. But you told me so I was worried about stuff like that, and I was always like very uh I'm a worrier, I admit it. And so uh, but you told me like, don't worry so much, just just do what you do, and people will love it and they'll be fine. And I'm paraphrasing, but but that was so powerful for me to lean in because I've been told my whole life that my eclecticism was a problem from a marketing standpoint, and um, and uh, and then you gave me the courage uh to just lean into it and just just do it and you know, whatever happened happened. So I I appreciate that. And that was a really profound moment for me. And I I think that you've you've really encapsulated uh you know how people you know can you know have the journey that they that they have um and and just be just enjoy it because it's such a beautiful thing to to do what we do and to get a chance to do what we do, you know, for a living. And and and you in particular, I mean, I feel like being a good teacher is a real calling. Um there are people that are very talented artists, you know, or or any discipline that teach, but not all of them are good teachers. I mean, you know, they they may have the science down or whatever, but there's there's more. Um and and you you you you are really called, I feel, to be a teacher. And I and I now know that um, you know, a lot of that came from the inspiration of your mom, which I think is really cool. But when you were first going to school, what was what was your intention then when you were, you know, in in your in your late teens, early 20s? Like what was your what path did you think you were headed down?

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Well, such a hard I didn't do a lot of thinking as much as I did a lot of thinking, you know, if you know what I mean. Like do you know? I was always engaged in like deep things and reading deep things and that and really being intellectually curious, but I didn't really think deeply about my life. Uh I just, but I was deeply engaged in art all the time and like not 24 hours a day, but pretty much like all the time. I always had something with me. We didn't have the technology, actually, thank goodness. As we had have now, you know, so I have like my sketch pad and I have my notebook to write poems and other ideas. I have my beautiful pen, which I really love and I still wish I had it, and made a little pouch for it. And you know, like I'm I would carry my recorder with me. Like I would like be packed up all the time, you know, and just like ready to to whatever that I don't know, I needed to move, I needed to think, I needed to write, I needed to sketch, I need to like all of this. And so that really was my life. Like art, the arts like drove me completely. Uh so when it came to trying to figure out, I guess you're asking about, well, okay, now what do we want to do with the so-called the rest of our life, which I think is in some ways a very difficult and in some ways unfair question because then I have to like commit to something when I don't so many things, you know. Again, I grew up with the arts and I grew up teaching because my I was able to teach alongside my mother, you know, to help her out in group lessons. So, you know, all that. So I think inherently, uh instinctively, I was a teacher, uh, but more than that, I wanted to help people because again, primarily her students, even in our house, were kids who needed extra care. And she did the visual art. And so, you know, I saw I had that heart, that sense of service too. So that was a very deep part of, you know, me, as well as the need and drive to do the arts. So uh after great deliberation, I don't think it's an interesting story, but anyway, so it was either visual art school, like Rhode Island School of Design or something like this, go there, because I also love silversmithing. I love construction.

Joey Stuckey 14:38

I don't interesting things.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

And that was probably my strength in terms of visual art. So I thought, okay, we go there because they have a program there too, or I will go to a liberal arts school and focus on theater and dance. And so I didn't really know what to do. I said, okay, I can bring my silversmithing equipment with me, which I shouldn't have. I'm soldering in my dorm room. I'm a fire happening. That's great. At any rate, so I brought all my equipment. See, I can do this, I can continue my visual art, and uh you can do the theater and um the dance. And so, yeah, but you know, circumstances are circumstances, and I became ill and I couldn't do theater, I couldn't do the night shift, and I couldn't dance six hours a day. So um that was that. But I did do dance maybe one class a day. I was able to audit because a very nice teacher who was dancing with Maris Cunningham from New York City let me just audit when I was feeling well enough, and it was really great. But I moved from the performing arts to um ultimately majoring in writing. Gotcha. And write prose and really I majored in prose there, though poetry was always my go-to um, you know, way of writing. And so that's what I did. And I took a quick sidestep to social work, hence the service part. But I I never really knew how to put them together. And I and maybe it just I don't know, I didn't ask enough questions, or people didn't really understand who I am in terms of any advisor I had at the school. I have no idea. But whatever it was, I really never found a path of art and um service that really um was a good fit for me. You know, I did I did a little visual art working with autistic kids like my mother did, and that it helped, it was a good heart thing, but I didn't see that as I want to do that every day. Didn't so I returned to the visual art and just ended up, you know, teaching on a college level ultimately. And that's kind of it. So, but you know, when I I do write every day, thank goodness I committed myself to that. And so, you know, I'll I'll write a poem every day. When I have time, I'll go back and do the editing, you know, that really wonderful intentional work that you mentioned, the hours put in. And, you know, if I can, I'll do some visual art, do a sidestep and do some weaving or something like that. Not an ideal life, but my heart feels at least connected to the writing because I think writing means a whole lot to me. You know, I always wrote as well, and so that uh so that serves me for now, and my teaching is the service part. Right and service, no matter what topic I'm teaching, you know. Yeah.

Joey Stuckey 17:24

And and well, I mean, it really is service because you know, the the thing that I sort of have done over the past couple years, um, and and I think this relates to you a lot, because over the past couple of years I have uh realized that um there's uh an enormous amount of anxiety uh in our in our society at the moment. And uh and um you know, uh I I go and do master classes and and talk about all the nerdy, you know, technical stuff of audio and microphone positions and all this, you know, stuff. And um it's all important, but uh but the thing is one of the things I've been trying to do is give these uh younger students, you know, the permission um to to not be perfect, which is something you actually touched on in the beginning of our conversation. And um the the the the sort of you know, I basically reject the notion of the perfect mix. Um I could literally spend the rest of my life on a song and find something to tweak. I mean, I just could. And so what I've started doing is taking hit songs, playing them for the students, telling them the chart position, telling them like how how much people the chart position in and of itself is you know not the goal, but it's it shows it's it's a metric as to how much this song means to people that they want to hear it so much. And then I say, now I'm gonna tell you everything that's wrong with this mix. And so I break it down, point out every single flaw, and then say, now does anybody actually care or enjoy the song less? And of course, nobody does. That's you know, it doesn't it doesn't really affect them in in any in any way, but it's it's the idea of you know when how do you know when when the piece of art or in in my specific case when the mix is done? Because uh because as I say, you can tweak it forever. And so my my it's pretty simple but but profound in the sense that uh it's done when it communicates the message you intended. And and at that point, it's done. As soon as that happens, stop. Stop stop messing with it. And you know, so that's that's something that I think, you know, that that you did, whether you knew it or not, you did that for me um when when I was in your class, because uh uh, you know, I had I had kind of gotten into the headspace of you know, the anxiety of uh, you know, being a professional and the anxiety of you know trying to be an artist, but also, you know, making sure that I put food on the table and you know, all these things. And so, you know, I think I think the the conversation that we're having and the things that you're touching on, you know, um the permission and the grace and the you know the creative process of just kind of letting it do its thing, that's not to say you can't you can't tweak it or you can't make it better, or you can't use these surgical skills to refine it. But uh, but I think that's a really important message. And I, for one, am glad you're out there um, you know, preaching this, you know, sharing this perspective, because it's really important. Just just the amount of anxiety that that there's there seems to be a new baseline of anxiety, uh, especially with some of the younger folks that are getting into the you know, getting into the arts for the first time. Um, do you see that from your perspective? Are you seeing the same, the same kind of thing when you're teaching classes?

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Yes, sadly, yes. Um well just to look at Berkeley, you know, I've been at Berkeley for not Berkeley Online for 20 years, but in Boston and maybe I don't know how long I've been with Berkeley Online, honestly, at least 10, but I've no idea. I I don't mean time is a strange thing, but it is yeah, but the students, particularly the students in Boston, you know. I um because online you get some older students, it's a different mix, you know. You get you know, it's so whatever. So we're not talking Berkeley Online.

SPEAKER_04 21:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

But my Boston students have changed dramatically. When I've entered a long time ago, we could have fun in the classroom, they could be easy with me, they could be easy with each other, they would they would create a community together in the classroom. I mean, we talked about that a classroom is a a learning community, but nonetheless, they were open to it and easy with it. Now that doesn't happen. I mean, they if they know each other beforehand, then they'll sit next to each other. They try to sit way far away, they resist sitting in circles, they just they're incredibly anxious, they can't let go of their phone, they can't close their computer, they use AI incredibly much. And they are fearful. They literally tremble. And I think too that this applies to their music. I asked them, like I work with international students. So I'm not just talking about American culture here, which is I think is again the same kind of thing that's competitiveness and you know, you are what you put out in a product oriented. And once we can simplify anything, then it has to be that perfect product. Otherwise, it does it doesn't have the same value, you know, all of this, which has nothing to do with the intention of the creation to begin with. And so perfectionism really is a divide between the self and what we're doing. And and if we talk about a student writing a paper, you know, that's a creative act. You know, you're you see your agency and your capacity to express something. And I do have them write about perfectionism in the hope that by putting it on paper, so to speak, they could begin to have a more uh distant, you know, at a distant look at themselves to realize that perfectionism is getting in their way, you know, in some way or another, either that maybe they should reject it completely or at least temper their relationship with it, because they have been shaped by all kinds of things, by family and culture and everything else, and even global at this point, you know, that you have to be perfect, you know, people won't love you. And it really comes down to love. Every fear comes down to love. It does. And so if they don't, if they don't write that perfect paper, then they will fail and then they will be rejected and they'll be alone in the world. And this sounds like an exaggeration, but it is not, because fear and love and acceptance, belonging, which is one of the most belonging, I think, is the most fundamental need of a human being. We are individuals, but we also are communal beings, and to belong really is is that fundamental element, and they feel that they will be outside of things if they don't do that perfect job. They don't listen to my words, if they're too anxious. I mean, I've seen students tremble, literally tremble, literally. Yeah, you know, panic attacks, this kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 24:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Right. So it is a hard thing. And and what we need is we need to have a lot of not just voices saying it, but somehow they're allowing us to show that it's okay. You know, when I respond, I I have to grade. I wish Berkeley didn't have grades. But, you know, I in comments, you know, I will support what they're saying and I don't focus on unnecessary things because I don't want them to worry. Do you know what I'm saying? Right. It is the risk of honesty in their papers, their courage to look at themselves, you know, all of this, and then share it with me. That is the important thing, and and that is transferable to any context. So I don't know. So, lecture, as I say, lectures, I think you you use the word, the verb preach. I can't because I can only show through what I do how I am in the classroom with them, and hope that I don't see a lot of impact immediately, but I've lived long enough to know that perhaps I did impact one person or two. And if I'm able to do that, and the impact is a slow kind of emergence, and maybe that person needed to hear that and tested it out in a year, two years, five years, whatever, has opened up, you know, in that kind of courage needed to reject perfectionism, then this is a good thing. So, you know, I think teachers just plant seeds in good faith uh and hopefully do it with uh humility and the and gratitude for being able to do the planting. And that's all we can do, you know, and be as loving as we can and express that love. That is it. I mean, I think that is the important thing to have them feel safe. And it's hard to feel safe in all kinds of contexts and the classroom because it is one of the safer spaces, at least it can be it should be, yeah. And so we enforce it too by having class rules that they write. We will be respectful, we will listen, we won't interrupt, we won't, you know, like we write our class rules. I mean, they do, I don't, and we post them up and you know, refer to them. And so hopefully that is at least the beginning of that potential uh experience of feeling safe to explore and open up the self without the worries of uh perfect, because perfect doesn't exist. I'm absolutely absolutely not all and I'm grateful for it. I am grateful for it.

Joey Stuckey 26:40

I'd never be able to make it if I if I had to be perfect.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

No, there's nothing to live for, number one. How do you arrive? Do you ever really want to arrive? You know, and what does arrival mean?

Joey Stuckey 26:51

Yeah, what does it even mean? That's right.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

It's the joy that there's always some the universe is bigger than what we're able to perceive. It goes back to week one in our course with the Lao Tzu quote that we think that we look at a blank piece of paper and now it's up to us just to put something on it, not understanding that if we open up for perception, we are engaged with the universe, yeah, the multiverses. You know, like everything is there, everything is there. We collaborate with the universe in some way when we create. It would be a rather egotistical perspective, perhaps, to say that we are, you know, it is all up to us. It's not up to us. So much bears on us. Do you know what we think we carry, what we see, all of this. And and there's more that we don't even know, but things are um, you know, the different impacts of things that are all swirling around us. So I do believe that uh we just to stay humble and open, you know, is a really wonderful way. Show up for the hard work, as Elizabeth Yilbert said in her TED Talk, but also know that you're not in it alone, that your muse or your daemon, as she put it, or your genius, meaning like a little house elf, you know, the Romans had, you know, uh, that you're in collaboration, you know, you're in collaboration, and whatever happens, happens. And that is the thing, you know, not to feel like you have to set a goal and achieve that goal. It is the actual engagement with the art. That is the process and that is the joy of it.

Joey Stuckey 28:21

Absolutely right. And it's interesting too because one of the things that um I mean, I I I want to say this carefully, but one of the things that I've been struck by is that uh there are different places in the world um where it's easier to find that community that's welcoming uh and is joyful in each other's triumphs and and successes and supportive when there are hard times. And then there are places that are very cliquish where you know you just it's it's hard to be part of the community at all. Um and I I I I really am, I guess, I guess saddened would be the right word. I'm saddened to see that in the arts at all, frankly, because there's a lot of pers people that feel, you know, that if if they are uh if they're not competitive, that there's not enough, there's not enough uh there's not enough fame to go around or whatever, whatever it is you're seeking, right? I mean, there's not you know there's not enough to go around. And of course, my perspective on that is that you know, the more we work together, um the the bigger the opportunities are, you know, the the the the larger spectrum of of things can be done. And it's interesting, these little zones that you kind of find as you go. Strangely enough, I mean, I've just recently found a community in Los Angeles um uh uh that's that's just so welcoming and collaborative. And uh, you know, and I'm I'm flying out there again to do some more work, you know, later this year. And uh it's just really interesting to see these sort of pockets. But the um I I do remember in my time on Berkeley Online, um I did feel uh and I was very excited. This is one of the things that you know made me so happy to to be in that uh in that program was that uh there was a real community and and and uh we we nine times out of ten, uh the classes became you know compatriots and collaborators. And whenever I would tour through an area, I could call my my Berkeley online classmates and they would come see a show. They would come up with their friends and they'd come out and support us. And all I had to do is pick up the phone and say, Hey, I'm gonna be in your area. And they're like, Okay, we'll be there. You know, and it it was just it's fantastic, but I don't I don't see that as much as I used to. I don't, I don't, you know, it seems it seems uh just so slightly different. I think I think the anxiety is you know a big part of that, you know, that that there's there's just so much stress, but you're you're absolutely correct as usual, that uh, you know, everything we we experience shapes us in ways we can't really fully predict or understand. And certainly uh my art has been shaped by being a brain tumor survivor. I mean, I um I I I wouldn't I'm not I'm not nervous about it or or upset about it, but I do feel that I am more aware of the idea that I have a finite amount of time to accomplish, you know, like to like to like you know, do all the things that I want to do with with with my craft. And so uh uh I pretty much have two speeds, which is full speed ahead and asleep. That's what I do, you know. Um do you ever do you ever I wanna, if you don't mind, I want to talk about something because I have a disability. I know you said you got sick um uh earlier in your in your journey, and and I really, you know, I I used to not talk about it much because uh there was a risk, and and I have paid the price for this. There was a risk of people thinking that you're sick and you can't you can't be of service, that you can't participate, that you are not up to the challenge or that you're not worth waiting on. And um, and so there's a risk, and I've lost some gigs. Yeah, I've lost some some opportunities because I was honest. Um, but I recently, I'm a governor for the for the Grammy board, uh, Atlanta chapter, uh, and I'm also what's called their dream ambassador. Um, and I won't get into what that is, but it's it's it's basically making sure that all the disparate voices of the recording academy are are seen and felt felt seen. And um, and so I I uh we always the board members take it particularly seriously to have mentees. And I was so fortunate to get a young lady mentee who has some real health struggles, but she's in she's in the music and film industry, and I was able to give her some some comfort in one sense that she's not alone, that that they're you know, I'm I'm doing everything I want to do, uh, and and and you know, I have to manage my health challenges uh still. I mean, you know, I still have to manage them very carefully. Um, and so uh, but but she's not alone, number one. And then number two, you know, give her permission to like to like talk about it if she if she wanted to. Um, so I mean, do you I mean what do you what do you think? I my perspective was I basically I'm giving you the short version. I I'm verbose as you know, uh, but uh the short version was if they can't see your value, um somebody else will, so don't worry about it. You don't want to work with them anyway. I mean, that's that's kind of how I feel about it. Like if you if you if you can't tell from from the quality of the work that I put out that I'm not that I'm not worth um participating with, then then you know move on to to where you feel feel uh you know that that you're you're you're you're in the right place. Um but but you know, managing managing you know health issues uh as an artist, which is being an artist is already challenging. Um, you know, um I mean what was that like? And and you know, how how do you how do you feel about that, about that process of uh of being honest about it or talking about it, like should you, shouldn't you? What do you what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 34:14

I'm a private person. Yeah so that's probably the most public I've been ever. So it's kind of weird, but I'm not looking at anybody, so except your lovely picture. Do you know? So I don't know. But I don't know. There's a lot, there's a lot that you've said, and if I could just remind me what you just asked me. Can you remember that? I'm not good at it. I can. Okay, do you remember that part? But when you said I was uh when you said about people being divisive and people are human beings, you know, it doesn't matter what industry, they're human beings, you know, and the ego gets in the way. Sure. The ego and a whole lot of other things, you know, like women being left out at parts of the music industry. I mean, that's just huge. And so, you know, we have all this, and so it always is to find your allies.

SPEAKER_05 34:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

You know, if someone is not going to respect you, then they're having issues. It's not your issue, it's theirs, and then you just move on and find someone else. Do you know? And whether it's the band that you are creating or you're selling your music, or you know, whatever it might be, you need to find your allies because people aren't always able, they don't have the courage, the willingness, which is related to courage, to look at, I guess, what we could call difference. Yeah. Right. Because in the end, we can only love through our differences. Yeah. Otherwise, you're just loving yourself. It's like, yay, me. You know, it's like that's really what it is. And to build community is to bridge through difference and recognize the difference, right? So, but many people aren't able to do that because it is a hard and scary thing, you know, because you're breaking down those protective walls. And so, like for an artist, I mean, an artist can wait until maybe if someone breaks it down, but otherwise, there's always someone, always people out there, as you found out in LA, I think you said, that there are people that are not bound by that kind of fear, that kind of egoism, whatever it might be, and are willing to open up and bring someone into the fold, right? And so that is really it. And just to remember, as Victor Wuton said, uh, that we are already worthy, you know, he learned it from his mom. And as soon as he came out of the womb, he was already worthy. Inside, that's it. It didn't matter what people said, it didn't matter what he did, none of that mattered. That self-worth was inherent for him as a human being on this planet. And I think that if we can look at that as a foundation stone, because indeed it is, then we can better manage the external challenges, you know, that are out there living on a planet with human beings who are imperfect and malleable and you know, up and down and all this, right? So I think that's really it's a challenge because it challenges uh predominant uh points of view, but nonetheless, I think that's it. And then we we hope that at some point, I know you mentioned the Grammy thing, and I think that it's really great. I also I my heart sinks too, not because of what you're doing, but generally that you know you have to have the Grammy, otherwise you're nothing. You know what I mean? Right, right. And then and some schools, uh, we won't name them, uh, tend to like push like we celebrate the people who got the Grammys, and anyone else you don't even talk about. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 37:30

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

So this is a problem. We all, every human being offers a blessing, yes, you know, to this world. And we have to remember that, we have to remember that to stay humble and grateful, and then we can create family together. We really can, do you know? My son considered his big band his second family, do you know? And so when you're able to consider people, not in your biological family as family, then you know you can work anything out, and you know that you celebrate each other, right? And that if you look to each other, you look to learn or celebrate, but not to diminish yourselves or to aggreg aggrandize yourself either. Do you know what I'm saying? It's just absolutely yeah. So it's a really good thing. So back, yeah.

Joey Stuckey 38:16

Yeah, I I mean that that is that is the goal. I mean, at my at my studio, um, I mean, the uh I have a mantra that Joey Stucky's a drama free zone. And uh and what I mean by that, I say that sort of tongue in cheek, but my my point is that um we're we're here to make records and we're gonna and we're we're grateful that we are getting to spend this time together to do something you know positive and to to do it joyfully. And we and that that is really the experience that that I that I insist upon bringing to the table of uh of you know being a being a part of the team that that helps an artist you know get their art ready to be shared, um, you know, in in in the sense of a recorded, you know, a fixed format recorded piece of art. Um, you know, we we we really we really focus a lot on the joyfulness and maintaining joyfulness, even amongst adversity. Um, you know, uh because sometimes you know making a record's hard. I mean, you know, and it's it you know, there there are times we're like, oh, I feel like I've never picked up this guitar before in my life. What's going on today? But uh it's just, you know, we we just we do that and we're so excited to welcome people to the community. And and I always believe in giving of my time. And you know, when people new come to town, I mean, I will absolutely say, you're you're welcome here and like stop by for a visit unless, you know, uh, unless let's let's talk and let's let's get to know each other and let's share. And it's it's an absolute joy and privilege when that happens. It just really is. And you're right, we we've talked about it on this show before uh with some other guests. You know, the the Grammy, there's nothing wrong with being celebrated for an accomplishment. That's that's fine. But a lot of people, when they see that as the end gold, you know, when when when when that's you know the the end uh when when that's the purpose. It's not it's not it's not whether the music's you know reaching people or whether you enjoyed making it or anything else. If you the there are those who feel, you know, if you don't have that accolade, then then there's no value that attaches. And you you know, that's that's a really sad situation. And I I think that's uh as you say, that's a that's a real problem. I think I think the um you know the the anytime anytime that you have this sort of have to have the external validation to to enjoy what you've done, um, I mean it just seems to me that you know you're you're burning you're burning daylight. You're you're missing a chance to to be joyful and to to to to be appreciative and and and you know and find value within yourself. And I will say that my mom and dad did such an incredible job. Um, and this is before there was no ADA when I was a child. There was no, you know, there was no uh there was no system in place to help really uh when I was a child of the the the 80s, you know. And and so um they did such an incredible job not making me feel like I was weird or that I was different in a bad way, uh uh or or you know that I was like too sick to to do things. Like if I if I if I felt like it and I thought I could, then then we would. And if if I didn't, then we said, well we'll we'll do it next time. You know, it was they they just really stepped up to the plate and and just somehow through through their love of me, somehow they made everything okay. And they they really gave me a sense of self-worth so that I didn't feel bad about myself. I didn't feel like upset that I was, I mean, I didn't want to be sick, but I mean, you know, nobody likes to be in the hospital all the time. But but but I mean, but I mean, you know, they didn't, I didn't feel like I was a burden. I didn't feel like I was like significantly different from anybody else, uh, whether I could see or not see, whether I had, you know, I was sick or not sick, and you know, uh, they just I just sort of just got on with living and and and and you know, did everything I could. So that's the that's the experience that I try to bring um to my to my field, to my to my craft as as much as I can. Um but but they allowed me to, much like your mom, they they allowed me to be curious and to explore things and you know, and and all that stuff. And it was really, really important. And that's kind of the thing that I'm doing now in the studio is letting the artists explore, and then I guide them with some ideas, and they can take them or or not take them. It doesn't offend me if they decide they don't want to, you know, so I I can help them, you know, you know, explore uh the world of sound together. But I I do think that, you know, as I say, you know, there there is a challenge um of of uh of of of being being comfortable in who you are, and then as you say, just to also to to to find that love and to and to share it. That is that is the ultimate goal. And I have a song that I wrote called One Song at a Time, which is encapsulates exactly what you said of planting the seed and hoping that you know it it does some good. And and uh I'm content to to bring joy and positivity and inspiration to people one person at a time, one song at a time, yeah, you know, for as long as I'm able to do it. Um but I I just yeah, I just thought that it was, you know, that it was interesting the the the um just you know the way that uh for me the arts have always been a great source of comfort and uh and you know great source of uh inspiration and make me feel better when I'm having a bad you know, a bad day physically. Uh because there there are days Most of the time I'm I make it work. But every once in a while, uh my my body will get the better of me. I'm like, oh, okay, today's not gonna happen. I've gotta I'm gonna have to sit down today. But uh it's handy to having a wife that's a nurse because she can tell me when I'm when I'm pushing too hard. Because my instincts to push. My instincts to just push through it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

Yeah, of course. It's a survival instinct. I mean, I know you would I said I was a private person and I am, so but when you know I start getting sick, it's then a matter of doing two things. One, what can you do to empower yourself, right? Yeah. What works and what doesn't. And then two, reframing what blessing means.

SPEAKER_03 44:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

Right. And so those things, I don't know, I didn't do a particularly good job. Like when I first got sick, like in college, I was just like, I don't know, it was sort of day-to-day, you know, not, you know, I trying to sort things out. But when I got older, particularly when I was diagnosed in my, I don't even know how old I was, like my late 20s, then um I said, okay, now what am I going to do? So at first it was like a desperation. I have to do something concrete, right? To speak to my absolute uh kind of the betrayal of the body, this violation that'll be for the rest of my life. And you know, what do I do? Like everything was completely uprooted and whatever, at least that what I that's what I felt. And I refused to lie down to it. Right. And so I never went to support groups because I felt that I just couldn't, I couldn't live with other people's suffering. You know, it's like I'm just dealing with mine. So anyway, and uh so I did the most concrete thing I could do, which was um be a bodybuilder, as strange as that was.

SPEAKER_04 45:39

So interesting.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

Yeah, yeah, because it was concrete, it was absolutely concrete. So I could manage because I couldn't run anymore. I, you know, I couldn't do those kinds of things because I could barely breathe. And so I could always go in the gym and do this, but not that, this, but not that. And and of course, the way I am I took it to an extreme because I needed that extreme physical evidence that I could be this living paradox of the most strong version of myself that I ever could be, all the while being uh the weakest version of myself because of the illness. I love paradoxes, you know. So, anyway, so this is it. And this really helped me. And also I framed, as I like to write, as I said, this kind of metaphor. And so I became it's sort of like I became the warrior, right? The warrior who would rise up, you know, courageously every day, get out of bed and do whatever, right? So, but after a point, uh, the metaphor was difficult to keep living with the warrior, with the shields get heavy and all this, you know what I mean? It's like armor's heavy. So I realized, and James Baldwin, I love James Baldwin, but he has some quote that you know, we can we can't, we can at some point we can't keep fighting the battle, right? So I realized that I could not continue to be the warrior, at least the warrior only. And so I kind of translated my role with in relation, everything is relation to the illness, to companion, like how can I walk with you? You know, how do we walk together? Interesting life. And so at times I have to be the warrior, I do. But generally, uh, what is more sustainable is the companion, you know, how to live on a day-to-day basis with this thing, how to talk to it, you know, negotiate my feelings and all of this. And I really didn't share, I didn't share anything about myself at all unless I had to.

unknown 47:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

You know what I'm saying? Like if a situation put me in a particular risk related to my illness, I would have to say, you know, something like this. But otherwise I went underground because I didn't see the point in sharing, because it's an invisible illness and don't understand it. And so, which I understand that they don't understand it. Um, but nonetheless, and so eventually I did have to apply for disability at Berkeley, you know, like I can only walk, I can't always walk this, this, this, you know what I mean? Like, I need this, that, that. And that was very difficult things. That's another negotiation. How do you and this applies to anything as an artist, too? It's okay if you go for advice, it's okay if you your idea is not chosen in a collaborative context, you know what I mean? Like all this. And so, because people see it as a weakness, asking for help or or leading towards someone else's voice or something like this. And so I had to negotiate how do I keep my strength going and say that I have to make this compromise by asking for help, right? And so all of these things are really great lessons. But in the end, on a on a day that for a minute or two, or sometimes a whole day, when when I am able to walk and feel strong or whatever, and I've gone back to the gym too. For the last month, I've been going back to the gym, which is great because I needed to do that again. Yes, I need again, you know, at 71 years old, yay me. Anyway, so so yeah, it's it's been great because I needed it. See, again, the strategy, you know, okay, we got to fight all these things happening, so let's do it. But it's lovely. There are blessings every day, every day. And so the blessings don't in number, do not have to equal the so-called curses. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely. The so-called curse is a blessing. It really is. If we reframe it and understand that if we if I were not sick, then I may not notice all these things. I would not feel the joy of the blessings that I do. It just in contrast. And so this is it. I mean, we kind of live in a world of balances, you know. If you suffer for these two things, then the only thing that'll balance out is two good things. And no, not it at all. Not at all. I mean, I could have far outweighed the difficult with like the moment, just that one moment in a day when I looked out at the sun on the lake, like, you know, and then everything else poofs away, you know, and what a beautiful blessing it is, and how grateful we can be that we're able to witness that, and we may not have witnessed it if we were just in a different mode, a different life, you know, like all of this. And so I don't know if that answered your question, but this is kind of it. And finally I ended up writing about it. So this isn't the second most public thing, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Joey Stuckey 50:23

Well, I appreciate you, I appreciate you talking to me about it because I just feel like it's so important to let people know that that you don't that you can um you can have a life that's worthwhile, um, you know, essentially if you decide to. I mean, that's that's at some point it you know becomes a joyfulness becomes a choice. And you know, and you're right. What I love that you said, and and this is so cool because you know, some days you have to be the warrior and some days you don't. I mean, it's you have a complicated uh you know relationship that's evolving. And uh, and there are days where I where I'm absolutely psych myself up and I feel terrible, and but I psych myself up and and just you know get it get it done. And you know, but the thing about what's different for me and is a blessing in some ways, um, is that I have been doing this since I was 18 months old. And so I I'm I'm good at it. I mean, you know, I it's it's not new for me. Like I wasn't, you know, in my 20s and all of a sudden, you know, everything changed, or you know, that or that that's kind of so you know, for me, um, you know, I have a bit of an advantage in in the sense that I've been learn I've learned how to deal with this for a long time. And when I was young, I had a lot of people helping me carry the load and teaching me how to how to handle things and how to deal with it. And my parents were there to always, you know, uh tell me uh, you know, it it's this is okay. You know, this is this is okay. And so that's you know, that I I talk about it now. As I say, when I was younger, I didn't. Uh the blindness is honestly like the easy part to handle. It's the it's the other stuff. I take about 40 pills a day. And it and you know, and uh, and and there are days that I go, oh my God, not another pill. But um, you know, better living through chemistry. But it's it's it's uh it's one of those things where um you know I'm I'm taking things that um replacements from things my body doesn't do. So like I don't have adrenal function, which can be very challenging. So anyway, I appreciate you sharing that with me. And and I want to touch on on one last thing um uh while while I got you, and and and this is uh this is my pet peeve. I'm gonna admit this is my soapbox. I'm gonna I'm gonna try and be uh not too too too soapboxy, but I do want, and you mentioned it briefly, I do want to talk about as an artist, your thoughts on artificial intelligence and and its disruption in the in the creative spaces. Like I I'm just real interested in your perspective on this. Um I have some very uh specific thoughts, which everybody knows already, so I'm not gonna bore you with those again, but uh, but I'm just curious how what you what you're seeing and what you're thinking about about that.

SPEAKER_01 53:13

Okay. Well, first of all, I do want to acknowledge that I can understand people saying that AI is a tool like the computer itself or like a cell phone or even a paintbrush, right? It's a tool, and people can argue that point and there's validity to it. However, um given that I was born and lived my first two decades with or more, even without a computer, I didn't even had a word processor in college and a word processor, really heavy thing. So just to kind of put it that I really came from a different planet, so to speak, in that way, do you know? So I I've been living the high contrast of it. But I do see the danger of it, and I really fear it, and I it's not because it's change. I mean, change is anything is a disruptor. Anything that changes, right? That that uh says, okay, we do this and now our world will change. Of course, it means disruption, and generally disruption offers both positive and negative. The positive is efficiency and greater capacity, maybe to do certain things. I mean, I don't know, for AI, I guess. I don't know. I haven't touched it, I refuse it. But umetheless, but I do inherently, you know, instinctively fear it, and I have seen the results, as I had mentioned earlier, of on my students in terms of just technology technology itself. I have seen my students not write at all anything of their own, and then it's completely AI. And they trust AI to the point that they don't even reread a paper that actually is completely off topic, right? I mean, like this. And so they have completely yielded who they are as being blessed to be human beings who have the capacity to think and express. They have completely given up that freedom. Now, this is a scary thing, just generally for humanity. There was a philosopher, uh, I don't know, he has a long list of things that he did, but he was a French person who wrote the well, in translation, it's a technological society, and wrote it in 1954. And he talks about this that just if we allow ourselves to create, he called it la technique, but he wasn't just talking about technology. He really meant an environment that we created, you know, with technology, and that we let that environment, not the natural environment, that doesn't exist for us anymore, right? That but these this uh he calls it an ensemble, actually, that is this technological ensemble in which we live, we allow it to, it's a milieu. That was his word, and he it allows that technological environment to define us, and we think through efficiency that we are free, but in fact, freedom is an illusion. It is not this technology, this illusory kind of world that we've created with technology general, and I even know what he would say about AI, and the man's not alive anymore, but I can just imagine that we are not liberated as we think we are, but this world that we've created actually enslaves us, but it's the illusion of freedom. Right. And so I think about that, and I even think about the song that came out in 69, do you know, like the year 25-25? It was by Zeger and Evans. Do you know that one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like we won't need to have our eyes, our teeth, our hands, our legs, our, you know, we won't even have family. We just choose it, like kind of going to a test tube store. Do you know what I'm saying? Like we're subjugating our humanity. We are blessed. We come into this world and we have so much capacity to feel, to think, to create. We are all artists, we are all born artists. We are just some are blessed to actually live out their art and some are not. But our instinct is to be an artist, is to create. We just see these examples throughout history. If you go to World War II, you see prisoners, you know, Jewish prisoners in concentration, or maybe not just Jewish, but in concentration camps, or Terranstadt, where all that beautiful music came out of knowing these composers, knew that they inevitably, and it's true, would be shipped off and killed, right? But yet they wrote, even Senator the former Senator John McCain, when he was a prisoner of war, right? He he tapcoated, well, he received the tapcoat of poetry. And it was through the tapcoating of poetry that he was able to live as a prisoner of war for the length of time that he did. A Chinese dissident who died in prison relatively recently, he was not given paper and pencil. So he wrote poems in the air. We are driven, we are driven to create because we know this is the blessing that we have as a human being. We know it is the food beyond food, more fundamental than food, clothing and so forth. The poet Maya Angelou said that black slaves survive because of music and storytelling, the creative act. She didn't include food there or anything else, right? We need to create. And AI, we are subjugating ourselves, we're surrendering who we are in that creative capacity, who we are as human beings, fully aware of the blessings and being grateful for them, and then use them to honor them. We are giving those to technology, and then where will we be? We we maybe maybe the poems sound great, maybe the music sounds great, the everything is lovely, and we and maybe it is, and some of it looks cool, I guess. I'm not judging quality or anything else, but I'm saying what is the cost? We have to look at the cost, and the cost I think is too great, and so I am fearful.

Joey Stuckey 59:23

I I'm with you on this, and I have gotten uh a lot of hate directed my way uh on Facebook and places like that where I try to very reasonably, you know, articulate the points that you've just made so beautifully. And and and you know, my my point is like, well, without the without the struggle, without the humanity, like what is the purpose of the content that you're making? I mean, what you know, how do how is it how is it valuable? Um, and and that's that's the real question. And and you're right, we're surrendering all these things to the technology. And I, you know, um I I consider myself a bit of a scientist. I mean, I I exist in a very technical world. I mean, I I deal with frequencies and and dynamics and all these things that are uh manipulated to make recordings, and you know, the microphone placement is uh is based on scientific principle uh of how things work and you know what the polar pattern is and how I'm capturing fundamental frequencies based or partials or overtones or so there's all this stuff, but you know, that stuff is all in aid um of making something as a human. Uh it's not in lieu of it. And and I and what's really concerning is uh that um you know people are are are sort of anthropomorphizing some of these chatbots and and giving them attributes they don't actually have. And and I just have to say, hey guys, you know, the the it's not really thinking. It's not really this is you know, this is not a this is not a real being. You know, this is this is a program and that's that's designed to uh and and the creators of these AI chatbots admit it. I mean, they're designed to reinforce whatever bias you bring to the table. Um, so you know, it's there's no collaboration or anything like that. I mean, uh so it is concerning. And I I am um I'm an avid reader just as you are. Uh, and uh um, you know, as a as a sick child, meaning books for my refuge. And uh, you know, I don't know if if you read much Isaac Asimov, but I uh, you know, he was a brilliant man who who wrote a lot of different books, but you know, he has the ideas of these three laws of robotics and and uh you know ways of putting guardrails around technology um so that we we we view it in its place as a as a tool uh and don't surrender to it. Um I'm afraid of um you know uh without getting way political, um you know, there's some companies out there who have recently released a 22-point manifesto that essentially says that the people that create this AI technology should be governing the world and uh and everybody should be using and you know these big corporations are trying to make AI um uh part of our lives in a way that's so profound that we can't imagine not being not having them. And I I'm you know I'm already aware that I rely too much on my cell phone because it's been seducely made very powerful in our lives. And the truth is we don't really need it. I mean, not really. I mean, I mean when I was a kid, I didn't have it, I didn't miss it. I mean, you know, but but now I feel like like something's wrong if I don't have my phone. Uh and and so I think there's you know, I think there's a danger in in that that's part of the insidiousness of of being trapped by uh by the technology and and sort of suckered into thinking that we have to have it and we have to surrender our humanity to it. So yeah, I I feel very much the same way. And um, and and the thing is, I mean, you know, I can I can I can make the most cogent, relevant, you know, points and and very gently, like not trying to shame anybody, not trying to say that AI doesn't have things it can do and should do. Uh but man, it's uh the the critical thinking, you know, about this about this uh technology is is uh is not as prevalent as one might think. And and boy, people just like, oh, you're a Luddite. I'm like, no, I'm I'm really not. I rely on technology to survive. I use screen readers as a blind person. So I like technology, but you know, this this AI is it is it is troublesome. Um and you know, the I that's something that we're gonna continue to struggle with, I suppose, you know, as artists and as as as beings, um, you know, for the next little while. So this is why people like you are so important to me uh to share that perspective and and uh to help us continue to think um about you know the cost uh of of what it is. So I appreciate that and uh and appreciate you you you sharing that with me because that's really you said it better than I could. So which is why I ask you to be with yesterday, because I'm so I'm so uh enamored at your at your at your mind and your spirit. I'm so such a fan of the being that you are, and I appreciate your your time very much so. And and I want to say one other thing um before I allow you to to close with any thoughts that we haven't talked about. Uh, I just want to say that my wife and I uh talk about you on a on a regular basis, and one of the things that you have always said, and that is when you told me in class the definition of silly. And uh and that silly originally meant blessed. And uh, and so we uh we are very silly. I have a weird sense of humor, and you know, I'm I'm joyful, I laugh at silly stuff, and you know, I I collect unashamedly. I'm a man in my late 40s that collects stuffed animals. Um I love them.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:12

I've always got two bunnies that are looking at me right now.

Joey Stuckey 1:05:14

Oh nice! I listen, I am I where wherever we travel, I always grab a stuffed animal somewhere because it's a very tangible um souvenir for me. Obviously, like postcards and posters, you know, don't really have an impact on you if you can't see them. But but a little stuffed animal does. And so um I actually have I actually have found one now. Uh I'm not gonna promote the brand because they're not sponsoring me, but they should. But I I've found I've found one that's weighted and I have chronic pain in uh in my shoulder and my neck. And uh this little guy is so awesome because I can put him on top of my hot pad or my ice pack and keep it from moving. So great. And so I have this I have this little dinosaur I carry with me when we try. And I said it, but anyway, yeah, I I love stuffed animals and you know, I love, I just love I love being silly. I love and we are silly all day long. And uh and you know, we just we we love to laugh and we love to bring joy. And that was such a whenever I mean we we think of you so because we I mean I must say, you know, what does silly mean, Jen? And she's like blessed. And so we we are we you know we're we're always we we think of you a lot because you are so awesome.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:30

Yeah.

Joey Stuckey 1:06:31

So I wanted you, I just wanted you to know how special you are and uh and to tell you publicly.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:37

Well, thank you so much. Well, we we need to always go back to children and watch them play. And do you know, because the next uh meaning after the the etymological route, which was silly, was uh innocence, right? And and so how were we before the world taught us to be something else? Do you know what I mean? And so it's it's so important. So these little stuffed animals like the like the dinosaur you have and the two bunnies, each they have their own personality, feel differently. One sits up and one isn't. Yeah, so they all do you know, they each offer us something, do you know, and to like kind of erase the boundaries, you know, and just be a human being on the planet, you know, and appreciate the source of joy that it is to have that wonder and that permission to be silly, as you say, uh as adults, you know.

Joey Stuckey 1:07:26

Yeah, so important. It just it helps me like just cope. I really, I just I love it. And uh, and I have to say my wife is so wonderful because she uh she she thinks that everything I do is perfectly normal and uh and that she's you know, I've I've you know, I I mean I grew up as uh uh obsessed with sound and I still am. And uh, you know, I have recorders everywhere, I have microphones everywhere. I mean, it's just they're just you just you know, they're everywhere. And she, if I hear an interesting sound while we're walking through New New York City or something, she doesn't think I'm crazy at all when I stop and go, hang on, I gotta record this. She just lets me be, she just lets me be blessed, lets me be silly, and let me do whatever I want. And uh and uh, you know, and and she joins in the fun, you know, and and it's just it's fantastic, it really is. And and it makes life so worth living. Is there anything else you want to put out in the universe before I allow you to have the rest of your day back? Um that we didn't cover, anything you think is important that people should should hear.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:32

Well, I don't know. I mean, who am I really? I'm not offering any way of living a life as an expert, you know. I only speak from the life that I live, and I try to recognize that other people think differently. Sure. Anything that I've said is just asking for people to just take a chance and sort of open the window and kind of test that air, you know, what is that like, you know? I think that's important. But at the end of the day, and I don't mean this necessarily in a religious sense, but we we don't, and I think even Jacques Alul talked about this, that that, you know, the world is full of uncertainty. I mean, it is, and it always has been, by the way, even as much as we create plans and do all these things, every moment is uncertain. And so to understand that living is a matter of faith that, oh, who was it? There was a philosopher, his last name is Weinger, and he taught he had what I call the as if philosophy, that we live as if we have another moment and another moment. And it's not said in a morbid way, but it's said to really hone in on the blessings that are that are offered to us moment by moment and moment. So living is really an act of faith in that way, and it comes as a Lulu said at the price of doubt. Of course, we do doubt, we are afraid, but if we can recognize that and take the step forward, right? And with eagerness and with art to bolster us, to know, to rise up every day, as my my Angelou said, then we will have that courage, we will have that sense of agency that art gives us, that sustains us, that's internal and not external. Yes.

Joey Stuckey 1:10:16

Absolutely, absolutely. And it and that is that is that is the price. That is, that is the that's the priceless thing, um, and why I wanted you so much for a conversation on this podcast, because the goal is always to educate and entertain, but but also um just to share these new ideas. And as I told you, you know, the my concern has has always has been uh the higher sort of base level of anxiety that I've been detecting in our industry. Um and so uh we're we're we're hopeful that uh that people will find some some some kernel of inspiration that will guide them to new pathways. So that's always that's always the goal. And uh, and if not, maybe they got they get were entertained by some of the some of the silly things we had to say. So that's that's good. And I'm glad to know you're a stuffed analyl enthusiast. So I thank you so much for your time and no pressure, but you're my guru as far as I'm concerned.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:07

So I appreciate it. Yeah, well, thank you. It's been such a joy talking to you. It really has. It's been so long. I don't even know how long ago were you in the class, Joey?

Joey Stuckey 1:11:19

I can't remember that far back.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:22

This is a thing. So what a joy it is to still stay connected over.

Joey Stuckey 1:11:27

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:28

Yeah, that's a blessing in and of itself.

Joey Stuckey 1:11:30

It it really is, my friend. And please, uh, please I'm gonna stay in better touch because you and I always communicate around the holidays, and um, and I always make sure you know we're thinking about you. But we we need to we need to next time I'm in Boston, I just hadn't been back that way, but uh a visit's overdue. So it's I would love it. And I I appreciate you and and tell Nick I said hello, and uh we'll stay in good touch, and I will let you know when this when this airs so you can listen to it or or not.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:58

Nick would love to hear it. So thank you.

Joey Stuckey 1:12:00

Yeah, well he'll get he'll he'll get some he may get a secret or two that he didn't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:04

I don't know about that. We share a lot, like I like you and Jen do.

Joey Stuckey 1:12:07

So yeah, yeah, we're we're we're a team. Every yeah, I mean everything we do is you know we're we're we're uh we have no secrets. We we know we Jen knows I'm not perfect, she's okay with it.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:18

Yeah, no. Well, no one is Joey. That's right. She loves you for who you are, not for I don't know what some illusory kind of an illusion, whatever it might be.

Joey Stuckey 1:12:27

So I thank you. Have a wonderful day. Thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:31

All right, take care.

Joey Stuckey 1:12:32

Much love, friend.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:34

Same here.

Joey Stuckey 1:12:34

Bye bye. Bye.