Joey Stuckey 0:00

Welcome once again to Stuck on Sound, a podcast for nerds by nerds, and we are proud of it. And I have one of someone that I have followed for years. I have been in the same spaces uh with her, but never got a chance to actually shake her hand and meet her in person. But she is one of, in my mind, the most important voices in the music community uh today and and has been for probably 20 years. And it's Ariel Hyatt. And I was just so excited to get chance to talk to you today, my friend. Thanks for coming on.

Ariel Hyatt 0:32

My pleasure. Thank you for such a nice warm introduction. It's so nice to know anyone's been paying attention for all these years.

Joey Stuckey 0:39

Oh, I pay attention. I ain't doing nothing but listening. Uh seriously, I I'm I really mean it. Uh I I want to talk to you about so many things, and I could literally talk for hours, but we we won't. But um I want to start with you on something um that it's a burning question for me. And we we have several uh pieces of wisdom of yours that I want to want to have you take us through a little in just a moment. But I do always like to start off with how you got into this absolutely nutty business that we are in. Now, I have uh uh just dissected your bio and checked it out, and it seems to me that your parents were a big part of you doing what you do. Uh, but I'd like you just to tell me a little bit about that and and just how you found yourself, you know, in this entertainment space.

Ariel Hyatt 1:32

Amazing.

Speaker 2 1:33

Okay. So, yes, you're right. I do come very luckily from a home where the arts was the most important thing. A lot of people come from sports houses where, you know, football teams or playing sports was the thing. At my house, it was theater and arts. And I had two parents who were extremely committed to being patrons of the arts. And we weren't, you know, zillionaires or anything, but I, you know, I think anyone that appreciates art is a patron of the arts. And so so that was the kind of household I grew up in where anyone that was a creator, whether it was a visual artist or a musician or a theater person, was the most important kind of person. My dad was a filmmaker, my mother ran a children's theater as her first career. And so I'm I feel very lucky that I I got brought up in a place where the arts were really, really revered as like the the ultimate way that any human could express themselves. And I had as a child dyslexia. And I was studying at or I was sent to a very elite private school, which is what we did in the 80s in New York, because public schools here were not what they are today. And they threw me out of the school in second grade because I couldn't read at the same rate as everyone else. And clearly I was very smart, they said, but I I couldn't make, I couldn't make it in the pack with everyone else. And my parents were worried that this was happening, and they went on a quest to help me learn. And I got connected to a brilliant tutor who figured out that everything was confusing as far as math and reading and science, but I loved music. And I in my music class, I was so confused by looking at the notes, that was crazy. But I had a really good ear and I had a perfect pitch. And so she started teaching me how to read and do arithmetic and write and organize the world through singing and music. So this is my very long answer to a very short question of how did you arrive here? I I arrived here because music for me was the way the world makes sense.

Joey Stuckey 4:09

I and I love this. So that is so perfect. And I'm I am I'm thrilled by this answer. It's very poignant and very powerful. And I I had a feeling in my heart that you had to be some kind of musician, although that's not kind of your your, I guess, your day job, for lack of a better word, but uh, but it but it I had I had a feeling because you had such an understanding of what it means to be an artist and you're helping other artists to do their thing, I I felt like there had to be some kind of background of music for you. Now, did did you, you know, everybody knows you as uh an author of books, uh, you know, a consultant, a strategist uh for the music industry. But I mean, were you an artist in your own right? Did you did you try this crazy thing of putting out records and stuff like that yourself before you got into into helping others?

Ariel Hyatt 5:08

I did not. So I I did follow my parents in their footsteps, and I went to college for theater. I was a theater major, and I sang in the a cappella singing group, both of them, both the the all-female group and the co-ed group, all the way up through college. And I always dated the bass player. That was my thing. Um, and no, I I sort of watched him and all his friends, you know, going for it and starting bands. And I thought, you know, that's not really for me. And I didn't want to pursue acting because, again, as a dyslexic, when you go to an audition, you are tasked with memorizing very quickly a passage, a script, a scene. And that's not something that I could do off book. And and so as a theater major, I kept getting passed over for all the roles because I didn't audition well. So I would be in the chorus or I would be, you know, a whatever, I'd get a role, but it would be a minor role. And the director would always say to me at the end of the run, I don't know why you weren't the star of this play, because you you really are great.

Joey Stuckey 6:25

You got it, yeah.

Ariel Hyatt 6:26

And I would say, well, the reason is I couldn't deliver on the day that you were supposed to deliver. So um I graduated with my liberal arts degree in theater, which which was you know good for almost nothing in the world.

Joey Stuckey 6:41

I understood.

Ariel Hyatt 6:42

And a and a giant passion for so I discovered growing up in New York City was amazing in the 80s because CBGBs and limelight, and there were so many incredible all ages, and they didn't actually card anyway, but I I could go and see music. I could see music any night of the week. On the night I graduated high school, I saw the stray cats tear down, tear down the old writs. So I I started seeing music at a really young age, and it was so thrilling to see live music. And so when I graduated, my mother was a career consultant, and she said, Well, what are you gonna do? And I said, Well, I want to be in the record business. I want to be in music. And so my mother called the one person she actually knew, who she had known for many years, Mr. Clive Davis. And and guess what? Clive didn't call us back. He was not he was not jumping at the idea of employing a brand new theater major. So um so we had we took that one shot and that was it. And then I I started like everyone else in the music industry, taking unpaid internships and my journey there commenced. So that was it.

Joey Stuckey 8:03

I, you know, it's funny because I mean, listen, I I'm um I'm gonna be honest with you, I am uh lovingly brutal to my interns. And uh I I do like to throw them in and watch them swim. However, I promise them that I will never A, ask them to do something I have not done, or B, put them in a position to fail. If I ask them to do something, it's because I know they can't. So that's you know, I but I do, I do think that uh, you know, you gotta work the interns a little bit. Uh it's kind of a fun rite of passage, I feel. It's it's interesting uh what you said um about the the theater, because uh as a blind person myself, reading obviously is a big issue. And uh when I was a kid, uh there was no ADA, there was, you know, kid of the I we're I we're I'm imagining roughly the same age. I never ask a lady her age because I was raised right. Uh so uh the uh but I mean you know that that was a problem for me to be a classically trained musician and to play orchestral music because that too is a sight reading kind of gig. You you go in, you you have one rehearsal, you read, then the next day you play. And for me to do that would have been an enormous amount of prior memorization on my part, spending many, many, many hours uh and not being paid well enough to take that time. So I did something similar in the sense that I went to jazz and rock and stuff where improvisation uh was prized, and I can do that. And and then I also made myself the band leader so I didn't have to follow anybody else. So, you know, it's I I like what you're saying because it's it's the similar ethic that I come from of finding an alternative way to do things. Yeah. Um and and you know, I don't know if you've had this same experience, but um I ended up, you know, being a business owner pretty early uh because nothing I wanted was available, so I had to make it. And um, and so how how long in your journey was it? Uh all that to ask you the question of how long in your journey was it before you said, I gotta hang my own shingle out. This is, you know, I need to do do this.

Ariel Hyatt 10:19

Yeah. So what you just said completely resonates with me. And I think this is also a trait of all creative people and artists is that they see the world differently and they do things differently. And for people like you and people like me, we had to figure out our edge.

Joey Stuckey 10:38

Yes.

Ariel Hyatt 10:39

And we had to figure out how do you make it leaning into that edge. And I it it's extraordinary that that's your story because that that is really also my story. So yes, it was the very late 80s um when I started college. I won't say my age, but that'll give you a sense. So um grunge was reigning supreme when I graduated from university. And I got a job working for a job. It was $68 a week as a paid intern working for one of the top uh music publicists in the world. And she had these incredible clients, Sting, Peter Gabriel, In Excess, Tina Turner. And I got I got a front row seat to like what that looks looks like. And then um I I had this passion for a little band called The Samples. And I I found their record label. I I had studied at University of Colorado Boulder, and the samples were huge then. And I got a job working at what are records. So that was my first job in a scrappy indie record label. And interestingly, we're on this topic. The owner of that record label, his name is Rob Gordon. He had come from the majors and had been an AR guy, and very similar story. He was a Ritalin kid. He was like a kid who had so much energy and and like was a savant when it came to playing. He actually, his first band that he played in was with Trey from Fish. You know, he was this like extraordinary musician and extraordinary in the studio and great years. Anyway, he at a very young age founded his record label and he had 12 of us and we were working our butts off. And that was that was how I cut my teeth. And he was, it was an amazing place to understand how the music business worked because he built his own distribution system, he cut out all the middlemen, he had a street marketing team that was hired by all the majors because we were so scrappy and so good at what we did. And he moved us from New York City to Boulder to be closer to the band that we were supporting. And the band blew up. It was it was incredible. So I had a front row seat to that. And then I very quickly got another offer, and I was a concert, I was working for a concert promoter for a year, and I got a front row seat to what it looks like to rip off artists for a living and to play that sort of brutal game. It was so toxic. My boss at the time uh drew a gun on me in a meeting.

Joey Stuckey 13:30

Oh my God.

Ariel Hyatt 13:31

There were drug dealers and scalpers coming in the doors all day long. I mean, it was like it was, it was like real edgy stuff. And that it was very interesting to um to to take that job, but I I wasn't long for that position. And so you're right, at a very young age, age 23, I I decided to hang my own shingle out. It all started at Kinkos. I made my own in the middle of the night, I made my own business cards, and the very next day I got on an airplane and I flew to South by Southwest. It was 1996. And I I roamed the streets of Austin and I saw some of the most incredible bands, and I handed out my little orange business card, and I named my company REL Publicity, and I declared that I was in business. I love this.

Joey Stuckey 14:24

And I and and uh even the blind man knows that an orange card is gonna stand out. I mean, that's that's a good, that's great. I mean, that's fantastic. Well, I and you know, I I have to say I do love your name. I mean, it it has such a nice artistic vibe to it, uh, and I think that's cool. What why did you you've you've I guess the the company that I know and that I that I've been following, you know, Cyber PR and you know, uh is it did what was the what was the change there? Was it a change in services? Was it a change in strategy? What was the you know, what was the change from you from that initial orange card?

Ariel Hyatt 14:59

Yeah, so the Ariel publicity brand served me very well for the first seven years of my life, and by the way, named after Shakespeare. So true to the uh theater family that I have.

Joey Stuckey 15:10

I think that's highly appropriate. That's awesome.

Ariel Hyatt 15:12

But I did decide that it's hard to be if you're if you're running a company and it everybody expects your name is the name on the door and it's the only name, it's it's really hard. If anyone else comes to the phone, everybody would want to speak to me. So I thought that's smart. And I was getting into the digital world. I had an early entree to the digital space because the kind of artists I was representing as mostly a traditional publicist was indies, all indies. And this was during a time when DIY and independent wasn't what it is today at all. It was basically an outliers business. And my clients at the time, if you had a CD, you had to work really hard to get that CD. It was an expensive thing to go out, record, and produce a CD. So most of most of my clients in those early days were hugely touring bands that were making full-time livings on the road. So I did that. I was a tour publicist, and the beginning of the death toll of classic media was beginning to happen. And my artists were the canary in the coal mines. I was beginning to see really early on, I, you know, I would have a band coming on tour, completely independent, maybe signed to a very tiny indie or the or doing it all themselves. And all these amazing journalists that I'd gotten to know at the small newspapers, and every single city in America had at least four or five newspapers. You had two dailies, and each daily had a pop writer, a jazz writer, and often a classical writer. And then you had a weekly alternative paper, and then you had tertiary papers. So you had community, maybe you had like a Jewish paper, an Irish paper, you know, a women's paper, a gay paper. So at any, at any town, I was literally hitting 10 or 15 different newspapers. And so all of a sudden, there was a giant shift and the editors started folding. So the one, the one editor at each newspaper started becoming the music editor, doing the classical and the jazz and the pop. Or even worse, the AP, the associated press feeds were now taking over the local music scene. And so I'll never forget it. I called, I think it was like the Cincinnati local paper. And the writer there had always been amazing to me. And we were always, he was always interviewing my bands, and I said, I've got this great band coming through town, you know. And he said, Well, I can't. I'm interviewing Elton John. I thought, why would a tiny little newspaper be interviewing an international superstar? And that's when I realized my little clients were not gonna have a shot at a world where there were fewer and fewer column inches for them. Yeah. So I turned to the internet. I turned to the internet and it was like, okay, we need to figure out uh an alternative. Like where where are the where where are the opportunities for for bands? And I started exploring the world of music blogs and online. They weren't even called music blogs, they were called web zines.

Joey Stuckey 18:36

I remember I do. I've been a writer for some of those web zines. Yeah, I you're this is really fascinating because um I've been I've been in media as a byproduct um for a long time. I've hosted TV shows and radio shows. And you know, now we're like, oh, it's you past time for you to do the podcast and blah blah. And you know, I've been print journal and all this stuff, journalists and all this stuff, but but only because um, you know, you have to wear a bunch of hats to make a living in the music business. And uh, you know, unfortunately, you know, really what we do um is communicate. I mean, that's that's what music is, it's a form of communication. So if you're good at communicating, typically you can you can move that into different sort of boxes if you need to. But the the thing that I will say is uh in today's world, I would love to, I've got some other big questions for you, but in today's world, I feel like we've gone back to this, even it's so hard to get someone to write a review, uh to to do uh an interview with an artist um even online now. So I mean, what what do you think about the media space today? I mean, is it is it are we back where where we were when with the independent papers started folding? Or what what is what is it like out there? Uh, you know, trying to get column, I mean, for lack of a better word, column inches. I mean, it's you know, it seems it seems really difficult to get to get one uh a column that that moves the needle forward anymore.

Ariel Hyatt 20:08

Exactly. You just said it and you said it all. It is almost impossible. As we know, publicity has become harder and harder to get. It has become less and less a major part of the strategy, and all of these other things have taken over, which is part of why I wrote my new book and part of what I've been obsessed with recently, because what is happening right now is so overwhelming. And I'm sure you've got questions about that. But yes, this is the this is the weirdest time publicity is, I don't want to say it's a dying art, but when you have platforms like Submit Hub and Groover and MusoSoup and Play to Play, and I mean there is a so-called PR firm that the only thing they do is they do paid vertorial and they say, Okay, you want, you want Rolling Stone, it's $3,000. You want LA Weekly, it's $5,000. You want and they're just selling paid vertorial.

Joey Stuckey 21:17

And it depresses me.

Ariel Hyatt 21:18

Oh boy, it is and and then you think about it, is like if you're gonna go and invest tens of thousands of dollars in hiring a traditional publicist and they're gonna pitch their brains out and they're not gonna really get you a top-tier result, well, you know, you might as well pay $3,000 and get the guaranteed. And truly, the younger generations don't care. So they don't care that it was they don't know the difference between paid rotorial and real editorial. And the album review, as you and I knew it, sadly is a a real dying art. And the writing of music and the describing music in words is. Is something that is now not really as heavily lauded as it once was. I still do think music publicity has its place, but yes, it the column inches are almost impossible to get, and it's so competitive now.

Joey Stuckey 22:16

Well, it's it's it's yeah, I mean it really uh I don't know how to say I mean this sounds so melodramatic, but it does. It it breaks my heart because there was a time where you could be transported to a different place and and begin to understand an artist in a profound way by someone that really cared and wrote something uh interesting that would give you uh either an insight into someone you already followed or maybe encourage you to take a second chance on a band that you hadn't connected with yet. I mean, it was I always, you know, as a blind person, it was hard for me to access those in the print form, you know, uh of a actual, you know, magazine. But online when it first, when we first kind of started having magazines online, uh, you know, there were there were people that were really gifted writers that were doing things. And Joey would come along with his clunky screen reader and be able to read, you know, some of these articles and it'd be a lot of fun. Now you uh you've mentioned uh your newest book or latest book, I guess would be a better way to say that. And and that is um something that we for sure should talk about. I want to tell you um what galvanized me to go, uh, I'm gonna find um Ariel's uh I'm gonna find her email address and I'm gonna bombard her until she says she'll come on the show. And uh I saw your new, I guess technically we should call it a vlogcast uh podcast that's that's come out. And you talk about these. Um I mean, this is so profound for any artist that that's that's out there, and that's you know, primarily our target audience here. Um, you know, you you talk about these, you have uh some pillars that you talk about. Um, you talk about um, you know, uh I'm I'm paraphrasing and not gonna say it as well as you will, but you're talking about understanding your artistic voice, understanding your identity, and and and those things are really important, uh, understanding who your fans are. Uh, and then, you know, one of the things I I love that you've kind of said, um, and again, paraphrasing here, uh, you know, it doesn't really matter where you are in your journey, it doesn't really matter how old you are or or what. I mean, there is a space for you where you can find people that resonate with what you are doing. And so I really love that because I think um, you know, with the death of some of the gatekeepers and the proliferation of the ability to uh you know upload content to the universe, uh that's a good thing, but obviously there's so much noise that it's hard to get noticed. There's so much, you know, so many choices, and and those choices aren't really being curated like they once were. So, I mean, they, you know, you have a negative, you have a positive, you have a plus, you have a minus. And and from my perspective, um, you know, and I I mean this with no uh ill will, but I mean there are people that are divorced from reality that are putting music out that really shouldn't. Uh and you know, if it makes them happy, that's fine. But there are there are the rest of us who, you know, uh slave away uh every every day, uh trying to trying to be compelling. And it's it's a real challenge. And it's, you know, at some point I'm thinking, am I gonna have to go sell my plasma? Does it make ends meet today? Um, but I I would love to get into your book and into these concepts that you're trying to um to share with artists while at the same time uh making sure people know that for the full story they need to hire you.

Ariel Hyatt 26:07

Wow. Okay. So the book is called From Buzz to Bond. I love that. Thank you. The reason why I called it that is something alarming has been happening for the last over five years in our industry, and that is the obsession with the algorithm.

Joey Stuckey 26:27

Preach.

Ariel Hyatt 26:28

Whether that is the TikTok algorithm, which is the newest kid on the block, or the meta algorithms, or the Spotify algorithms, we have all kowtowed and are now bowing down to the Almighty algorithm because that is what has proliferated as the new golden goose. And so what was happening to me is people were calling me, they call me all the time. I run an agency and you can fill out a form and talk to me any day. And I get on the phone with more people than I should every year, but I love this part of the journey. And and I would say, What's going on? Tell me about your music, tell me about your career, tell me about what's happening. And the thing that I kept hearing was, well, I hired a Spotify playlisting company and I got 100,000, 200,000, 500,000, whatever. Oh, I hired a social media marketing strategy firm and I got tens of thousands of thousands of people added to my socials, but you know, and then I'd start doing a deep dive, and I'm like, okay, you don't sing in Spanish. Why are all your fans in South America? You're not South Asian. Why is there a massive amount of people in Bangladesh listening to you? Like this is not making sense to me. Like the the demographic of people and what I'm seeing is not relatable. Like there is no, and then the other thing that was really killing me was artists would call and say, I've just worked so hard. I've just, you know, I they always hire a, and this is no disrespect, but they start the journey hiring above what they should be paying to get their music produced. So they hired the, they hired the very fancy Grammy Award-winning producer. Cool.

Joey Stuckey 28:13

Right.

Ariel Hyatt 28:13

Then they went and they mixed and mastered it somewhere fabulous at the top mastering guy. Great. You know, and you start thinking about how much money this is costing, right? Then they got their visuals done by a fabulous photographer, and then they hired a Spotify company and they got tens of thousands of Spotify plays. And then they tried to throw a record release party or uh something in their hometown and they put 30 or 40 people in their hometown. Great. And then they kept paying for this terrible buzz marketing. And they're a year in they've got a $20,000 to $100,000 bill and no real fans, and they can't drive 40 minutes or two hours away and put 20 butts on seats.

Joey Stuckey 29:01

Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right.

Ariel Hyatt 29:03

And this was devastating to me. You know, coming from where I came from, this indie scrappy record label where it was like all about direct a fan and all about, you know, how do we get the samples? 50 new fans every time we go through town in a grassroots sense. I mean, we had a 50,000-person mailing list. We were awesome. And I mean mailing like paper and putting envelopes with little welcome letters. I that's what we did at my record label. It was a long time ago. But that ethos always stayed with me. Like the fan, the real fan whose name you know, whose address you know, whose city you know, who you can talk to, that's the valuable fan. And everything everything that I've said in From Buzz to Bond is basically like, yes, hate the hate the game, not the player. If we have to play the game, great. Throw some money down on your Spotify so it doesn't look like you have, you know, 19 plays a month. Cool. But if you want a sustainable career, if what lights you up is being in a room and people are vibing with you and singing the lyrics and clapping along and you're touching and moving and inspiring people in real life, you have got to do the bond marketing. And that is the piece that, you know, all the labels went crazy in 2024, 2025, and all we heard about was super fan, super fan. Superfans, this is not a new concept. Beethoven had super fans, right?

Joey Stuckey 30:36

List.

Ariel Hyatt 30:37

Right. And so all of a sudden, and also if you have been in the industry for more than five minutes, you know that Kevin Kelly wrote in defense of a thousand true fans for Wired magazine almost 20 freaking years ago. And yeah, I know, I know, I know. It's awful. It just keeps going. But that, when I first heard that philosophy all those years ago, I I was like, I got chills. I got chills. Oh my gosh. If you had a thousand fans and each one of those fans paid you $100, that's a hundred thousand dollars. Like to me, that was a sustainable path. And as unsexy as that is, that is, I think, the key if what your goal is is to have actual real fans. Now look, no disrespect. If you are totally into like getting a million plays on YouTube and you want to look at the number and that makes you happy, and that's your dopamine hit, and that makes you feel like you've arrived, cool. But my work and what I'm fascinated by and where I think we need to go as a human population is into community, is into bonding, is into touching each other because right now we're just getting more and more separate. Social media has ripped us apart. It this loneliness epidemic is real. And I don't think that we feel any better after a two-hour session on TikTok.

Joey Stuckey 32:08

Oh, I listen, you this is absolutely you have hit something that I think is mission critical. Um, and that is that the arts, you know, I am the first to admit that I take my role as an artist very seriously, maybe even too seriously. But the fact is, I feel like I have a responsibility to society to promote new thought patterns, to preserve the history. Um, and I think you can directly measure the health of any society by its artistic content. I mean, it's it's you know, it's very plain to my mind that a healthy, happy, thriving culture is one that has the arts at the center of its spiritual and moral, you know, uh place. That's where it's functioning from. And so, you know, we we meet you're absolutely right. I think I think the the thing about social media, and you know, everybody likes to beat up on it. Uh uh it's it's easy to do. But the fact is it really has pushed people into boxes, uh separating people more than it has brought them together. And and uh, and that's a real problem. And and it's just it's so hard to fight. And there's also um, you know, when you and I were young and virile, uh when we were young, uh yeah, we we we were fine without cell phones, we were fine without Facebook, but we have been given this idea that we have to be bombarded constantly by content and and been made to believe it. And the fact is, I actually know better and still get suckered.

Ariel Hyatt 33:57

Oh yeah, we don't know. I mean, we we're we're you know, we are a hundred percent helpless. Yeah, the people that design slot machines design the algorithms. Like, have you ever been have you ever been to Vegas?

Joey Stuckey 34:08

And you know, I have and I have to I have to tell you that I'm very sad because when I went as a child, my dad actually they told him that they when I was a very sick child, almost died a bunch. And so my parents like took me everywhere they would go. They would never leave me at home, and they always wanted me to experience everything the world had to offer. And so they took me to Vegas as like uh eight-year-old. And uh the the people are like, You can't bring this child on the floor. And my dad said, Oh, he's uh he's a little person, actually, he's not a child, and uh which of course wasn't true, but uh I did play the slots and uh won 20 bucks and was just thrilled with the as a blind child to hear the sounds, all those coins bouncing around. Uh and now you get a little ticket, no coins, and so even that has been taken anyway. The uh even Vegas is ruined, but but kids are allowed everywhere, so there's I know well you know uh well and the thing, I mean it's just it's just so funny, but I I do I really want to home in on this point because uh for me, and and you know, as you absolutely say, and and I and I I can't believe I mean it sounds like we've lived in each other's head somehow because this is what I tell my clients as a producer. Uh, look, dude, if if what you want is limousines and cars, and yeah, uh no, no shade. That's that's cool. If that's what makes you feel happy, that is your privilege to pursue that and to do that. But I have always been about the work. I mean, the the work of the music has always been enough for me, and all I really want is the opportunity to tell my story, to sing my song, and for it to mean something to somebody. And I don't, I actually have a song I wrote called One Song at a Time, which is the song that's about the idea that I am content to change lives slowly, one person at a time, one song at a time. I feel fulfilled doing that. I feel fulfilled talking to people like yourself. I feel fulfilled going to do master classes at universities or whatever, and talking about, you know, producing records and you know, I mean, and and just you know, just but it's that idea of community that you hit upon that I think is the the thing. And that and that's really what we need to get back to uh because you can find people who are patrons of the arts for for lack of a better word. And you've kind of mentioned that earlier in our conversation when, you know, with your folks. Uh you know, there it I think that's what we have to find again because it not only gives us you know meaning to what we do and value to our time and effort, but also people are willing to part with their cash um to be part of what you're doing, to help and to help you and to be proud of helping you. Like it's a thrill for me. I mean, I've worked with a few legendary artists over the years, but I don't have any Grammys, I don't have any Platinum Records. Um, but what I do have is this the the knowledge that I've put people on a firm foundation uh for future success by giving them some of their early experiences in the music business. And that is really uh a great feeling to have. And so I think that's you it gets back to that idea of community, and I really love that you said that. That's so cool. Um, you know, I I wanna I wanna I know we've we we're probably starting to run short on time, but I wanted to to talk a little bit about um, you know, the algorithms. We we've we've touched on that, um, and I do feel that um, you know, uh we've everybody it's easy to beat up on Spotify and everybody does. And so uh I'm gonna I'm gonna do it because it's easy. So it's but but I mean in all seriousness, like you know, that's I had a guest on the other week who's uh chartered on Billboard and uh you know uh has a couple Grammy uh nominations and and stuff like that. And you know, he has made the decision. Um, and he he owns his own record label, which is you know an imprint, he's the only person on it. Uh, but he's made the decision for his new record uh to produce it on vinyl in a box set with an illustrated book and to provide an experience, and uh you can't stream it. Um what are your thoughts on going in that direction these days? Like going, you know, more experience versus you know uh the the the the the sort of tropes that we've been tricked into to pursuing.

Ariel Hyatt 38:43

I think that that's brilliant. It's brilliant. It's saying I make art, I'm an artist, and art should not be 0.003 cents. That's what it's saying. That's what it's saying.

Joey Stuckey 39:00

I love it.

Ariel Hyatt 39:02

And you also have to be okay with I'm only going to sell as many as I can get people to buy, right? I mean, that is true.

Joey Stuckey 39:13

Yeah.

Ariel Hyatt 39:14

And so as long as you're okay with that, and as long as you're good at sales and good at doing the setup and good at the journey that that's gonna take you on, I I think that that is a wonderful thing to do. It's bringing back a format that likely his fans love, and it will probably prove to be a really rewarding experience to put the music out the way that he's gonna choose to do it. I just got off the phone with a newer client. His name is Mark Duffy, he's an incredible singer-songwriter, and he is also having thoughts about not wanting to put his music on Spotify. We're going with Bandcamp. And you know, I think Bandcamp is one of the most exciting platforms on the internet. It's like the the world's biggest online record store, and you can browse and you can pay what you want, and it's it's a good medium, it's a happy medium between give it all away or not. But I think this is something that artists do need to consider. Like, how am I going to make a stand that I'm not okay with the way that things have been going? And how am I going to claw back people's attention, people's money, people's support, people's camaraderie? It's it's not the easy way to do it, right? The easy way is you pay a bunch of fake bots to do it and then wave the numbers around. But I think at the end of the day, you feel empty if if that's the only choice you've made for your marketing. So I am into that vision that your that your client and your friend has about that vinyl, and I think it's a great choice.

Joey Stuckey 41:04

Yeah, I I just I love the fact that he's uh he's decided on an experience that you have to actively seek, that you have to, you know, participate in. And he's I mean, he's you know made these box sets lovingly with so much care and craftsmanship. And you know, he's he's you know hired the best musicians, and he's he's also a graphic artist, and and you know, uh started as an art school guy and then you know started playing guitar and all this stuff. It really is brilliant. Um Grant Malloy Smith's his name, by the way. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. So Grant's Grant's uh fine, a fine fellow. He started the Indy Collaborative, you're probably aware of him. Um and and you know, and you know, the the other thing I would say is would would you uh would you agree with the statement that we have in the Western world, uh Europe is not as bad as we are here in the States in my mind, but uh made music more uh dispensable and less integral uh as part of our social uh you know consciousness. I it just feels to me like the streaming has, and I again it's easy to beat up on the streaming guys, and and you know, I I I will acknowledge that, but I I just feel like almost the ubiquitous nature of it has made it you know just something that we don't treasure as much because when I was a kid in the 80s, and you know, we would we would go and once a week or so, um everybody would take their allowance and go to the record store and we'd all get together for hours on a Friday night and sit there and everybody would play their record. And sometimes we play somebody's record twice. And as a blind child who had no business trying to move a needle on a turntable, I can tell you I personally believe I bought Michael Jackson at least one house because I had to read that thriller record a bunch because I scratched it up so bad. But anyway, I mean, I I don't know if you had the similar experience, but I I missed those days. And I, and I, you know, I my my sweet wife um at least pretends that she thinks I'm reasonable and normal. And um, I will literally buy a record that I'm excited about. And I say record, I mean CD or whatever, but I will buy one and you know, I will wait until I have 45 minutes to myself to actually sit down and listen to it from start to finish. Now, that doesn't mean that I don't consume music on my phone all day long because I have to. Someone says I want to sound like a Dell, I gotta know what that means. So, you know, I I I I do consume music via the lazy path of streaming, but I just wonder. If you feel like there's been a shift away from that integral sort of nature that music used to have, or at least I feel like it used to have.

Ariel Hyatt 44:13

Yes. And you're not crazy. And it's actually true. This is what has happened. Music is no longer the main course. It's like a side dish. And I think part of that is absolutely the fact that everybody can just get as much of it as they want. But we also have to remember the way that people's brains are wired now. Their attention spans are down. And you know, short form content is up. And so it's very hard to get people to sit and appreciate something that's only audio. I I'll never forget. I have a Miss Pac-Man like from the from the 80s, like the real video game.

Joey Stuckey 44:54

Oh, my wife was a champ.

Ariel Hyatt 44:56

Me too. Yeah. So when I made my first money that I didn't have to pay a bill with, I I went and I bought this arcade game because I I love it. So I had it, I still have it in my house. And my my friend's son, he's now in his 20s, but he was about nine or ten. He came over one day and we we were having a and a little party. And his father said, Oh, this is a Miss Pac-Man machine. And we set him up and he put the quarters in. He's playing the game, and he played it one or two times. And then he looked up at us and he said, Well, where are the other games? And we were like, Nope, this is this is the one game.

Joey Stuckey 45:34

This is not, you know, happy with these gods, but what? Exactly.

Ariel Hyatt 45:37

He was just so used to like, you know, there should be five or six hundred more choices. So this is the problem. We're overwhelmed with choice. It the singles world is not helpful for asking someone to listen to 14 tracks and get into a concept album. Music being listened to in the background, like I'm working to this, I'm studying to this, I'm sleeping to this, I'm having dinner to this.

Joey Stuckey 45:59

Yeah.

Ariel Hyatt 46:00

It makes it passive and not active. You know, all of that is bad for making music the main experience. And unfortunately, there's so many things vying for our attention. Streaming, I mean, how many wonderful TV shows are there to stream on every you've got Hulu, you've got Netflix, you've got HBO, all of it. I mean, it's insane.

Joey Stuckey 46:24

Don't forget Disney. Yeah.

Ariel Hyatt 46:25

Don't forget Disney and Apple.

Joey Stuckey 46:27

Yeah, yeah.

Ariel Hyatt 46:27

You know, all of that is vying for the attention that you might have spent sitting listening to an album. And so the world has changed, unfortunately, and we're never going to get those things back. And I think artists know this. And we also have to think about what is the multi-hyphenite piece that you're going to add into your music that's going to keep up with the fact that people now expect and crave a little bit more.

Joey Stuckey 47:05

Gotcha. I I have two last questions for you, and I'll let you go. They're sympatico, I think. So um the the thing is when, and this is this is a uh question because I firmly believe for whatever this is worth, uh, that uh people should hire you immediately. Um and and I really um uh I because I I've always been a good uh uh not that I haven't made mistakes, but I've always been a fairly good judge of character and and and content uh pretty easily. And and I can tell that you're thoughtful and passionate, and that is absolutely mission critical to have someone partner with you to help you uh navigate the waters uh of the music industry or any industry. Uh you really have to build a team. You cannot do it all by yourself, um, not for any sustainable amount of time. Um but what is what is your like average? I'm not saying pricing or anything like that, but like what does the average campaign look like these days? When I went to school for marketing the first time, um you know, that was a that was the 90s, so half of that stuff doesn't apply anymore. When I continued my education by going to Berkeley online, studying music business, half the stuff I learned there doesn't apply anymore because things have changed so much the past two to three years. I mean, like what what kind of strategies are people needing to commit to these days, uh, as far as like general ideas of budget, general amounts of time that they they put forward uh in in you know releasing new music or or even just maintaining their momentum?

Ariel Hyatt 48:45

This is the thing that's crazy right now, is that answer varies depending on the artist.

Joey Stuckey 48:50

Yeah.

Ariel Hyatt 48:50

So the thing that I don't want artists to think or do is buy into the buzz marketing narrative, which is I have the thing, I now I need to go viral on TikTok, now I need to have a hundred thousand plays or a hundred thousand streams, or I, or it doesn't count. So the problem with all of the buzz marketing stuff is it's brainwashed us into believing that 200 or 300 or 500 of something isn't enough. And so that that's the first thing I think we should all focus on when it comes to marketing. The value of a real fan is different than the value of an empty dopamine hit. And so that's where we start with any kind of marketing plan that we begin to put together. Again, you nailed it when you talked to me about what you perceive I do and what my podcast is talking about. My podcast right now is unpacking the philosophies in Buzz to Bond, which by the way, Buzz to Bond is is just like a little, it's 66 pages long, a lot of it's got a lot of pictures. It's not a deep book. It's really a philosophy. And the reason why it is is I just wanted people to have a mind shift. And so the mind shift is about like, okay, we know that buzz marketing is like gorging yourself on potato chips. It's you're you're gonna feel bad when you're done. You're gonna feel bad. Yeah. I mean, you might feel good for a few minutes, but then you got a stomachache and you've got a bad idea.

Joey Stuckey 50:19

Yeah, and then you're like, why did I do this?

Ariel Hyatt 50:21

Why did I do this? I I should probably eat a salad. Yeah. You know, the salad takes more effort. But the so every marketing story is different. The first thing I like to do is start with what the artist can bear and what the artist feels good about doing, because so many artists come to me. A lot of my artists are older. They don't want to get in front of TikTok 43 times a week. That's not how they're gonna succeed. I say, great, let's do the thing that feels good. Are you a long-form writer? Let's write some long-form pieces of content and let's make a blog or a travel journal. Are you into going and making live music? Let's make, let's record one of your shows. You don't have to buy into the like stupid TikTok trend. You can absolutely record yourself in the studio and cut that up and make little videos. Like, there's plenty of ways to reverse engineer what it is you like to do. And the next part of the journey is about aligning with are you gonna be okay with the kind of marketing that we do? There are so many marketing companies right now, and so many people with different philosophies and different ways of helping artists get exposure. And no one way is right. And so that is a huge thing that we do at my company is we say, okay, the thing that you will take with you forever is understanding what your brand pillars are. The thing that you will take with you forever is understanding how to figure out who your fan base is. Because the minute you pick up your phone or turn on your computer, there are billions of opportunities out there, but you don't need billions of anything to succeed. So the question is, how clear are you about your inner compass as an artist? Obviously, your art and your music comes first, but then there's a lot that goes into figuring out how to stay solid because this thing that we call the music business, music marketing, music production, all of it, it's not even called pivoting anymore, which you so beautifully spoke about is like you have to keep learning and learning new things. Everything you learned at Berkeley seven years ago likely doesn't exist anymore, or it's changed so radically. But what never changes is understanding your brand, understanding your fans, and understanding how to connect those two things. So that is a huge part of what we do, and that's the core of anyone that's good at marketing. And Seth Godin is still the king of marketing, and I think his philosophy of the meatball Sunday is something all artists should consider, which is your art is a beautiful Sunday, right? You have a banana and you have some ice cream and you have beautiful whipped cream, and maybe you like butterscotch or chocolate sauce or strawberries, but then marketing can often be like a giant greasy meatball with tomato sauce. And you're taking your beautiful Sunday and you're shoving a big meatball on top of it, and that is not gonna taste good. So not appealing. Not appealing, not not appealing at all. But I love that because so many artists make the sundae and then they buy into the meatball buzz marketing crazy. Yeah. And then all of a sudden they're sitting here with a big plate of mess, wondering why nothing works.

Joey Stuckey 53:57

So that is that is beautifully put. And and your book, I'm assuming, is available everywhere you can buy books, Amazon and such.

Ariel Hyatt 54:04

Absolutely. It's it's on Amazon. It's called From Buzz to Bond, or you can buy it right at my website at cyberpr.com.

Joey Stuckey 54:11

Which would be even better. And the last question I'm and I'm I'm gonna admit that I'm setting you up here. So I'm just I'm telling you ahead of time. Uh, real quick thoughts on artificial intelligence in the music space. Oh boy, this is I have I've gotten some wonderful answers, and some of them were uh we'll say colorful, and we left them in because I agreed, but it was I've had some great.

Ariel Hyatt 54:35

Yeah, so so I'll tell you this, Joey. I'm really happy I'm not on your side of the desk because this is where the reckoning is happening, right? It's like right now we have a million tracks a week coming up on Spotify, and that is like an insane number.

Joey Stuckey 54:50

That's crazy.

Ariel Hyatt 54:51

It is only gonna get worse, right? It's gonna get it's gonna get worse, it's gonna get worse, it's gonna get because of AI music. I am an actual proponent for using AI to do the things that suck artists lifeblood away from them. For example, writing 12 different versions of Instagram captions, figuring out how to title an email so that people will actually open it. How to craft a press release that you need to put out for your next tour. These are all things that Claude is fabulous at.

Joey Stuckey 55:31

And I think artists are definitely the most sophisticated for sure. Yeah.

Ariel Hyatt 55:34

Artists should 100% use LLMs to help them route their tours, figure out the best way to market, figure out how to use it as your thinking partner because it is the best unpaid intern you could have.

Joey Stuckey 55:51

Yeah.

Ariel Hyatt 55:52

So I think when you when you look at AI and all the scary things as far as like the creation of the art, that's one story. But using it for giving you back the hours of your life that you're going to spend zhuzing a LinkedIn post, I'm here for it.

Joey Stuckey 56:14

I love that. I I mean, you know, my perspective is is essentially the same as yours, uh, as far as um the idea that it has its lane. Um and and, you know, for me, um I think that if you can use it sort of as a virtual assistant, that seems to have value. Uh, I think as a blind person, if it can be my eyes and tell me stuff uh that I can't see, I'm all about it. I've actually been preaching, you know, about moving to AI as the primary accessible solution for the blind for about six, seven years, um, and saying, let's get away from these screen readers that have so many flaws. And not that I'm not grateful, but you know, the easy things can defeat a screen reader, different colors and and things like that. And so, you know, it it I'm all about it. And then when it comes to AI being an artiste, uh I feel less, I have less positive feelings about that. Uh and I I would like to say I'm not a Luddite, but the thing is, I mean, you know, I just I want AI to stay in its lane. I don't want to be murdered by my toaster. Um, you know, I want, I want, I want Isaac Asimov's three laws of robotics. Uh, you know, I feel like uh, and I'm a I'm a governor of the Grammy chapter here in in Georgia, and you know, we definitely have some advocacy that we do. Um, and we we definitely feel, and I can't speak for the recording academy, of course. I'm speaking as myself, but I'm saying that uh, you know, I definitely feel like federal legislation to put guardrails on things uh is an appropriate idea. Uh and then you look at some of the scary, weird tech manifestos that are coming from some of the AI companies, and you're like, okay, wow, this guy's read too much Nietzsche. You know, so it's just you know, it's a whole thing. But I, you know, I'm I'm with you in that it it does have you know value. And we even for this podcast, um uh I don't do it because I I got I I I del I love to delegate. I gave it to somebody else in my team to do, but you know, we we take um we take the the the podcast and throw it into Claude and then have it chew up a description of the episode.

Ariel Hyatt 58:21

Show notes, show notes. Yeah, I've been making podcasts for you know since 2008. Show notes used to take me half a day. Oh god, yeah. It's terrible.

Joey Stuckey 58:30

And you know, as for me as a blind guy, like if I want to check punctuation, I have to go back and read letter by letter on the screen. It takes forever. So I can't, you know, just glance at it and check. I have to literally listen to every letter of every word. Oh my God, it makes me want to start day drinking. It's awful. I and by the way, but blind and drunk are not things I advocate. So I don't, I don't day drink, but there are times that I've thought about starting. But anyway, but that's yeah, that's it. I I think you have such a wise uh perspective. And I'm so grateful that you took the time to share it with me today on the podcast. And and it's just been a true privilege and pleasure to get a chance to know you a little bit and and hear some of these these these uh words of wisdom and and uh and and just I'm so grateful you're out there in the trenches keeping keeping things moving.

Ariel Hyatt 59:22

Thank you. And it's so nice to hear your story. And I think that your story and my story, if you delve in with anyone who's working in our industry, we're all connected in this very same way.

Joey Stuckey 59:35

Yeah, and you know, I come to New York from time to time. Next time I'm in town, I will call you and and my wife and I will come and we'll we'll grab dinner or something and I will um even my treat. So there you go. Look at that.

Ariel Hyatt 59:45

Oh, I would love it. I'm getting a podcast interview and dinner. I love it. I love it.

Joey Stuckey 59:49

I love it. Hey, that that almost sounds like a movie. Uh patent pending. All right, I'll hide. I love it. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And uh make sure you check out all of the fantastic guests we've had here on Stuck on Sound. If you are in the music industry, an artist, you want to talk about technology and the business of music, there are fascinating people for you to discover right here on Stuck on Sound. And you can find it wherever your podcasts are consumed or by just going to www.stuckonsound.com.