Joey Stuckey 0:00

Welcome once again to Stuck on Sound. I'm your host, Joey Stuckey. And man oh man, you know, I I I I am just so excited today. Uh I I couldn't sleep last night, uh, not because of anything uh strange, but I knew I was having our very special guest on today, and I was so excited.

SPEAKER_03 0:19

Oh, I couldn't have had that effect on you.

Joey Stuckey 0:21

Oh, you did. You did Michael Binehorn in the house. I mean, he's he's he's uh he's absolutely uh an incredible person. And I want to, Michael, I want to tell you before we get started about the many interesting things that you've done. I have a story for you, and uh, I just wanted to share. Oh, it's it's uh it's it's not it's nothing too bad. Um you know nothing too bad.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

Well, make sure to at least PG rated because my son's in the background. He's just he's doing this lootling project.

Joey Stuckey 0:51

I will keep it PG, it's not a problem. This this did not come for the dark web, so you're good. Okay, well, thank goodness. When you know, you and I met at Nam uh with our dear friend Daniel Keller. And we had a lovely dinner together with with several people, and I had such a wonderful time sitting next to you and and talking and chatting and visiting. And you know, uh, as often happens, um, you know, when we were done with dinner, I had a new friend, and and that was you. And yes, uh, what you know, of course, is that I'm blind. What you may not have thought about is that one of the things that Joey cannot do is read liner notes on album credits. And so I knew you as my new friend, and then several weeks later, discovered you were the man behind one of my favorite records of all time. And that and that was super unknown. And okay, I was like, holy crap. So it was amazing, it was just amazing to uh to have that revelation and to go, wait, this this guy that I just met, and you know, I liked him and we had such a great time. He's you know, I thought of him as my new friend. Little do I know he he did one of the greatest records of of uh uh you know of all times. And I just you know, one of my well, at least one of my favorite records of all times. And I thought that was just so cool. And uh I thought that was really interesting. And I I wanted to kind of start um uh just to tell you that that uh you had that impact on me. That was a real, that was a big surprise and a real thrill.

SPEAKER_03 2:28

Um happy to have participated in it directly and indirectly.

Joey Stuckey 2:33

Well, you know, I'll tell you one of the things that, and I want to I don't want to go too far into this rabbit hole because I want to talk about uh your like how you got in the music business to begin with, but one of my favorite things that you said in a little interview that I saw, and it may have been because you know we follow each other on Facebook now and stuff like that, and it may have been on your Facebook page, or I may have seen it somewhere else I can't remember, but uh you know, you talked about the drum sound uh on on Super Unknown and how long and that you took your time to get that. And uh I just thought that was really, really interesting. Um, you know, having you know, back in those days, I I guess you know, records had budgets.

SPEAKER_03 3:10

And you know, I know it's a hard concept to grasp, but back in those days, records had budgets. Yeah, and I was just like gave you money to actually spend time making art in a recording studio with no restraints. If you were good enough and if you'd proven your worth, they would let you have they would let you actually make a piece of art instead of rushing you through the process of doing something like that to churn out a product.

Joey Stuckey 3:40

Yeah, I mean, in in today's market, I mean I don't I don't know that you would be given that same uh amount of of freedom.

SPEAKER_03 3:47

Um I think it really comes down to what strata of artist you happen to be. Like what level you're at. And even then, I think that the that music is so typified by genre now that it's so entrenched in those cat in categories, in categorization as opposed to just art creation, that um you even if you have the budget to make the kind of record, to make a record at all, and you can spend all the time you want, it's still going to be something that falls well inside a specific aesthetically I I'm I'm not aesthetic, genre-based target range. So I don't think that you uh even now I don't even if you have like all the time in the world to make a record, you're still not given the same kind of artistic latitude that we would have had back in the 90s.

Joey Stuckey 4:50

Yeah. I mean, that's when I got started as a as a whippersnapper, is you know, the the the 90s was my my sort of formative you know years. And uh uh and and I really you know I really value those those days um and and the kind of art that was being made by so many people. And it is true, um you find today that uh you know there it's more about you know numbers and and and of course, I mean, you know, the whole point's always been to sell records, but you know, there's there's so many, you know, metrics now that it seems that are more important than the art, which was kind of depressing. Yeah, yeah. So but but I I wanted I just wanted to kind of touch on that because I was I just I just wanted you to know what how much that record meant to me uh and uh and how much I loved it and and absolutely played played it a lot.

SPEAKER_03 5:43

Well, I appreciate that very much.

Joey Stuckey 5:46

I I mean, you know, well well let me ask you this before we like before we go too crazy. I love these origin stories, and um, I'm just really curious about what brought you into the music business and and how you found your way into it, and um, and and and you know, and then also not only found your way into it, but but were able to do it at a really high level. Uh what was that what was that start like for you? When did you get started in the music business?

SPEAKER_03 6:13

As far as getting started in the music business, I mean I just I kind of fell into it. Um I when I was from the time I was little, I had a real I had a fascination with sound. Um it just really interested me. Noises and then, you know, uh things blowing up in movies. Um when I was seven, I went to my grandparents' house and they had this uh switched on Bach record, which absolutely mystified me because there I don't know if you you've probably seen the cover, but I haven't seen the cover, but I've heard it. Yeah, there's a guy with like a powdered wig on who's dressed up as you know, as J.S. Bach, and he posed in front of this crazy contraption with knobs and patch chords, and and there's a keyboard attached to it, you know, and it's like, what is this thing? And then I heard the record and I was like, oh my god, that's amazing. Because obviously these sounds were completely unnatural. I'd never heard anything like that before, but they're playing music. Or the guy was using um Walter Carlos, who's now Wendy at that time, you know, was using it to make music and to do and to do Bach and to play Bach compositions. Um and I just started get developing this fascination with synthesizers and that and electronic music. So when I was 14, I had like a summer job pushing a cart around Flushing Meadow Park in New York, and I made enough money to buy a micro MOOC. I discovered that not many kids my age had an instrument like this, and that got me entry into like um playing with bands and stuff like that. So I jammed a bunch, and uh one thing led to another. Uh a friend of mine named Fred Marr. We met up with a guy named Bill Laswell in New York who um was looking for people to jam with, and we formed a band that eventually became called Material. Five years later, we uh Laswell and I wound up making a record with Herbie Hancock, who was on his last legs at Columbia. I mean, the the way things just kind of fell together gradually over time. Um even now, when I think back on it, I'm kind of like, how did all this happen the way it did? Because I'm basically a street kid. Five years later, I'm producing a record for this jazz like legend who's on his last legs at Columbia Records, who's about to get dropped from his deal. And the record we make winds up being his biggest record, his and his like most successful record in his history. You know, the there's a 12-inch from one of the songs called Rocket that sold like three million copies. I remember that. Which I think even now is probably the biggest selling it at back then it was the biggest selling 12-inch in Columbia and then Sony Music's history. Um, you know, and so all of a sudden we get catapulted into the limelight, you know, and we're basically just these two street guys, you know, or like hustling for work and stuff. And now you don't have to think about it. Um at some point, though, in the process, I sort of got like shunted out of the way, and I had to kind of I had to, you know, figure things out on my own. So I just started, you know, I hit the pavement and started like going to AR people, record companies for gigs. And it took me several years, but I found myself in the office of an AR guy one day who asked me, Have you ever heard of the Red Hot Chili Peppers? You know, and this is at a point where no one's heard of the Red Hot Chili Peppers, so I'm kind of like, uh, maybe actually I said yes because I thought I'd heard them on uh a college radio station that I was listening to back then. Turns out I hadn't it turns out I I'd missed the chili pepper song, and what I was thinking was chili peppers was actually scraping fetus off the wheel, which is completely different. And uh and you know, things uh that's really kind of where my career as an independent record producer began. So did you so you that's the Cliff Notes version?

Joey Stuckey 10:46

No, I I I I think that's really fascinating. I love it. I love it. Did you study uh music at all? Did you or did you just do it on your own? Did you go to school for it? I mean, did you you know what what was it that that you gave you such insight? Was it just constant exposure or what?

SPEAKER_03 11:03

When I was like a tween, uh I started playing, I started taking piano lessons. Um unfortunately, I have I've I've got like ADHD, and for most people with ADHD, you have a very limited range of stuff that you can actually focus on. I mean, when you find whatever it is that you can focus on, you get hyper focused. Right. Which means that you just dig into the exclusion of everything else.

Joey Stuckey 11:33

Right.

SPEAKER_03 11:33

Playing an instrument, much and I loved music so much. It was one of the things in my life that I was passionate about. I mean, definitely not school. But music and visual art were the two things that I cared about the most. I could sit there and draw for hours. As far as sitting down in front of a keyboard, it was just even though I love music, I couldn't do it. And I had to reconcile. I mean, I I recently understood what the mechanism was behind it. But at that point, I was just mystified as to why the actual physical mechanics of music and the theoretical understanding of it were so elusive to me. In terms from a technical standpoint. So I did everything by feel. When I was in a band, by that time, anything that I'd learned regarding piano was just out the window. I didn't know, I didn't remember a single thing. I didn't even know what key act was. I have clinics like that. Like you, you know, you someone could say, Well, we're playing, we're in C, and I'd be like, huh? Which is really funny. Um over time, I mean, I I've picked up enough music theory where I can kind of like I can work my way through it and even you know talk to people from a theoretical standpoint. Although when you get beyond a certain point with me, it's like, what? But I mean the reality of the situation is that in most cases, at least with today's music, you probably don't need to know anything beyond like a nine chord. You know. You know, I mean it it's it's good to know clo it's good to know close harmonies in case, you know, in case there's some kind of really unpleasant um uh some kind of uh unpleasant harmony that you have to deal with because it's almost always something where two notes are a little too close together.

Joey Stuckey 13:27

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 13:28

You know, but the I I've all for some reason I've just always been able to by ear work my way through theoretical the theoretical knowledge that I don't have or didn't have at the time. And I think a lot of it was just has always been innate with me. You know, just understanding dynamics, understanding rhythm, understanding how roots and harmony and melody kind of work together and counterpoint, um, especially in rock music, because obviously as a composer, when you kind of break everything down, you can see that in different forms of music, the instruments all have different relationships. I mean, in in rock music, there's a very there are very specific relationships that people have tried to escape from, but it's not an easy there aren't there aren't many easy routes to take. And once you start working with uh too much uh complexity, you really, really need to know what you're doing. I mean, it's amazing actually, because in the 1970s there was a tremendous in the 60s too, but I think mainly the 70s, there was much more emphasis on interesting chord structures. I mean, it worked, but that worked musically where people weren't throwing things in gratuitously. Um, you know, a lot of sevens, a lot of, you know, a lot of you know major sevens, you know, even I don't think the nine chords were that in vogue back in the 70s, but you know, people would do what they wanted. They they there were the a lot of jazz came into the the fore as well, and people were able to do great stuff with it. You know, nowadays everything is very deconstructed. So you're really dealing with a very limited range harmonically. Going back to that Soundgarden record, of course, there's stuff on that record that it kind of falls outside, it falls outside a lot of different genres of music because they were so interested in alternate tunings. You know, but unlike unlike a band like Led Zeppelin, who are doing alternate tunings for a reason, you know, and that reason being that they're they're tracking music, they're they're tracking different forms of music and different tunings that went with that music, as well as styles of like folk music, because obviously Jimmy Page was like a great tremendous fan of like uh of folk musicians, and a lot of those guys used really weird tunings that you know go back to um the I mean because they there's like correlations in um in English and uh I guess um Irish and Scottish folk music forms that are actually that are similar in some ways to um th music that have like microtonal um that have micro-tunings in them. Uh you know. Um but in sound with Soundgarten, they were, you know, they were sort of following the you know the Zeppelin approach or what what Zeppelin did without actually kind of referring back to some of the the the their influences, you know, so they're coming at it from a completely different direction. Therefore, the music that they came up with was almost alien in some respects. Yeah. You know, I mean if you listen to the the opening of Black Hole Sun, for example. One of my favorite sounds. I mean, but but but the chords that he's played, the arpeggio that he did it, you know, that's uh you can't really touch on it on a specific tradition that that might have come from. You know what I mean?

Joey Stuckey 17:11

Right.

SPEAKER_03 17:12

Like like I I can't really I I can't put my finger on what that might have what that might have been, what what that might have been influenced by. So uh, you know, it it it it comes across, at least to me, as being somewhat more alien than anything else.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:29

Um but uh you know those those things if anything, I think that it that it in me it kind of inspired sort of like uh an a afterthought of what is this and how did he come up with it kind of thing. And obviously the you know, the answer to the second question is, well, it just happened and he came up with it, and it wasn't because of any, it wasn't because he was trying to imitate anything that he'd heard before. It was just where his like his create his creative, his expressive, his need to express himself really kind of directed on, you know.

Joey Stuckey 18:08

Yeah, I mean it's absolutely genius. I I am so in love with it. Um just just not only the melodic structure, but the tone of the guitar and yeah, you know, all of it. Yeah. Uh do you think that that's the I know that you're passionate uh about artist development, which is something I think that you know nobody really does much anymore. Um but no you know, and but I mean, so so I mean, it sounds like you know, with the super unknown record in particular that you know there was space and time to to to grow and to learn and to to experiment.

SPEAKER_03 18:44

Um that's it, you know, like you had again, like I was saying before, you had the option, if you were a band at that level, to be able to make the kind of record you wanted to make.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

You know, and to me, I came into the picture and I just saw it as like an like a blank canvas. I was like, let me add them, basically. You know, um, I mean, a lot is said about bands who would make records in like, you know, five days, 10 days, 15 minutes, you know, how the spontaneity of stuff like that was really, really wonderful. But I I feel that that's kind of, you know, when people sort of retroactively design these histories to be like, you know, that methodology is like the right methodology, I think that that's really, I think that's really wrongheaded. Because for a lot of bands, like spending that much time, that little time on a recording had nothing to do with like, I just want to make something spontaneous. It was just a matter of necessity. It was like, this is what we have to work with, or this is how everyone works, you know, which generally consisted of people setting up in a room, playing together, you know, recording things a certain way and getting done. You know, but not everyone works like that. You know, people forget about the Beatles. Like they would spend hours and days getting the right take of something, getting the right sounds, you know. It happens that their aesthetic as far as recording went along with everyone else. You know, overdubbing wasn't a thing yet, at least not to the extent that it's become or that it became later on. So they would the the way to make a record was you set up in a room and you played the song together as a band. And they were they were very practiced at that. You know, I mean, there are there aren't that many bands now, certainly not around the time that I worked on Super Unknown that can actually do that and do it well. Um, you know, when you're recording a bunch of instruments at the loudest possible volume and you're getting people to play like that, if you want to have a live record that, you know, with those variables in play, then you're gonna wind up with something like raw power. You know, like you you have to you have to kind of deal with the variables that you've that you've got in that case. But like I I just you know not a second time, Marius. Thank you. Oh, this kid.

Joey Stuckey 21:20

Um you're being paid back for something you did as a child, I'm I'm I'm sure.

SPEAKER_03 21:26

Uh oh, yeah. I mean, it's not like it's a terrible thing or anything. No, no, I don't know.

unknown 21:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:32

Um, anyway, you get the gist of what I'm saying.

Joey Stuckey 21:35

Yeah. I I it's interesting because, you know, my the way I do things as a blind person, like my first guitar teacher uh trained my mind um uh on a lot of theory because you know, I I wasn't able to read the sheet music. And uh I had to I had to be able to understand what was happening around me and to predict you know what was. Going to happen next. Um, you know, and I went to music school for it, and you know, it was it was a whole thing, and and uh nobody, nobody for 300 miles taught braille music back then, and so I just I never learned to read it, which really braille music's not really that handy in in the first place because you got to use your hands to read. Right, and you can't play and read at the same time. So, so yeah, I I always I always went for a combination of uh of a pretty advanced theoretical knowledge and then then like you know, what was I inspired to do? Right, sure. And and so, you know, that that that kind of that kind of was was the way that I make things work and make sense to me. But the I love the fact that that you're I think you know, so inquisitive. And I want to tell you, I I was also uh a child that loved sound and uh here. I I carried, you know, it's a you know, a boom box I carried around with me and just record anything I could. And I would just use the scientific method, like, what happens if I put the microphone over here? What happens if I yeah, and my my parents indulge me, and my wife still indulges me. Um I I always have a microphone and some kind of recorder in my bag. And there are times that I've stood on a street corner in New York City and recorded traffic sounds. Oh man, that's the best. And my wife is like, she doesn't think I she doesn't think I'm crazy at all. She she just she just grins and pairs it, you know. But but but I I love the and you know, I I love that you found your way uh into some really serious uh with Herbie Hancock and you know, really serious jazz um you know records uh in your early career. That's so interesting. And what was your what what what was your guiding principle to work with someone who, you know, Herbie Hancock is like a master of harmony and and that kind of stuff. I mean, you know, how did you how did you help him to have a really a rebirth of his career? Like what was that like? I wish I'd been in the room. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 24:02

Well, I mean, the thing is that you don't go into a situation like that thinking I'm gonna help this guy rebirth his career. I mean, really, again, you're talking about two like street guys who played in, you know, who played in a band in New York at a time when obviously New York was going through this extraordinary artistic renaissance, and basically anything was possible. If you could dream it, you could do it. That kind of thing.

Joey Stuckey 24:28

And what year was this, Michael? What was the what was the approximate time?

SPEAKER_03 24:31

Uh we started working in 1978, and um we worked with Herbie in '83. So we were talking like a five-year span. And the New York scene had really started to develop in the early 70s, but it it didn't hit its pace until probably about 75, 76, when people from all over the world started looking at this place because it was falling apart, but it had lots of, I mean, there was a there was a really a deep art scene to begin with. You know, like a lot of artists had gotten lofts downtown and stuff like that. And, you know, there was this whole like subculture of people that were living and uh down there who were doing who were making art and stuff. And um there are there were so many people that were that were living in in New York. So I think it was already perceived as a um as a place for artists to be. But the with the economy collapsing and all this available space and you know the city making deals with artists to get these like incredible like spaces and stuff like that, and you're paying like $200 for a loft the size of a city block. Oh my God. Wow. Yeah, it's insane. So like we're we're living in all this, and there's like you know, jazz musicians, rock musicians, punk rock, this, that, the other, you know, famous artists. Like I went to high school with this guy, Jean-Michel Basquiat, you know, like just as an example, you know, who became one of the most famous artists of the 20th century.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:11

Um, you know, you had this like this just groundswell of like culture from every direction. And yeah, I mean, you could pretty much do whatever you wanted. And we we were playing clubs and stuff like that. We made some records with a bunch of other artists, and we got noticed, and you know, the guy who worked with Herbie wanted to get Bill and Fred to play on his record. And uh that kind of fell through. We never heard from him again. So that was over. And about a year or two went by, and then he reached that again. This time it's the end of Herbie's career. Herbie's about to get his ass booted off of um off Columbia. So he's got to do one, he's got to deliver one more record, and they want to know if we're willing to do two tracks for the record. You know, I mean, again, this is sort of like happenstance. That's a big thing. It really was. Like of all things, of all, you know, right now, at this particular moment in time, we're being asked these two guys who, you know, we I mean, our band was definitely known in in the New York music scene, but we weren't that big a deal. So we kind of, you know, we had this opportunity to do to work on Herbie's record, to do two songs for it. So we kind of strategized about what we would do because we were very interested in in the can in a conceptual approach to making records. Um, you know, because we'd been influenced by a lot of people, like Brian Eno, for example. Oh, yeah. Who uh uh you know who took who kind of approached music making, you know, to a certain extent, if you you know, if you're trying to kind of systematize it, which I think a lot of people who thought they were clever back then would do, you know, to to kind to to kind of approach it from a more systematized or for, you know, I don't want to use the word formulaic because it's kind of a it makes it it makes it sound like there's some sort of recipe that you're following, like a preset one. But this this is more of like a um it was more of like a bespoke approach. And the the I guess the the overall the overriding approach was Herbie Hancock is this groundbreaking um brilliant jazz fusion musicianist, one of the greatest keyboardists of all time, right?

Joey Stuckey 28:49

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 28:50

Who played on so many revolutionary records, you know, between Miles and some of the and some of the records that he that Herbie himself did before he kind of went off on this like tangent of wanting to be an RB artist, which he just couldn't pull off. And it really is what derailed his career, you know. So let's forget for a moment that you know where Herbie is at this moment in time. Let's imagine that he never went off the path, and he just continued to be this sort of like groundbreaking, brilliant jazz fusion composer, and all of a sudden here he is one day and he hears a hip-hop record for the first time. You know, then at uh at this point in time, hip-hop is relatively new music. Certainly, like people at his level aren't really familiar with it. What does he do? What does the music that he makes as a result of that, you know, that kind of like clash or introduction or, you know, whatever? What is what is that music going to sound like? And that was the basis on which we created the first two tracks that we worked on. I mean, because obviously we wound up, we went on to make the whole record, and one of those rack, one of those tracks became the song Rocket. Uh and, you know, we really built it from the ground up. We didn't have a precise framework to work from. Um we, you know, we'd been going, Blaslow and I had been going out to clubs a lot, particularly this place called The Roxy in New York, which was one of the two places where people were being introduced to hip hop music in New York City. Uh and you had, you know, people, hip-hop, it was every Friday night was hip-hop night. So people would like would show up from all over the city, and there'd be like B-boy competitions and like scratching competitions and stuff like that. And uh I mean it was it was one of these like cultural moments in time that just really kind of galvanized people from every different direction. And it was an it was amazing, it was absolutely incredible. So while uh one night Laswell was there and he met this guy named DST, who's now DXT, who, as it turned out, was uh one of the best, I'd say arguably the best turntablist in New York City. And they talked about doing something down the road. So when it came time to work on Rocket, Laswell contacted DXT and had him come down to do a performance on these songs. Um and then he also reached out to this guy, Daniel Ponce, who was an Afro-Cuban percussionist. And uh he came in and performed on it as well. So basically, we start with a drum machine. Um the story of creating the drum machine track is really funny, actually. I'd love to hear it. Um, okay. Well, I'll tell you. Um I'd gotten an Obraheim DMX, which um I don't I'm not sure if you if you're familiar with or remember those.

Joey Stuckey 32:11

Um I I don't rem I don't remember I've never seen one personally, but I I know what they are.

SPEAKER_03 32:15

Yeah. Uh it came with a system, actually. You could get the whole system, which I I did. Fortunately, we got some kind of advance from um a record company we were working with at the time to to purchase some electronic instruments. And um I got this, it came with an Oberheim OBXA synthesizer, an Oberheim DSX, which was the sequencer, and an Oberheim DMX, which was the drum machine. They worked together as a as a system, you know, so you could have a sequence, you could have the sequencer playing a sequence with the with the uh with the synth, and a drum machine playing a beat along with it. And this is one of the first times that you actually had all of those things kind of functioning in sync you know, in some kind of synchronicity. Um so up till that point, you know, we've been doing some hip-hop records here and there. And um I was basically programming the drum beats. And you know, the drum beat, I I programmed, I programmed a single drum beat, we'd let it run for like five or ten minutes or something like that, record it, and that would be the basis for our track, right? So for the Herbie thing, it's a whole different can of fish because now we got to do a song, you know, a piece of music with different parts, different drum beats, and I'm like, uh-oh, because I don't know how to because I don't know how to operate the I I know how to program a beat, but I don't know how to operate the the drum machine in song mode, which is a whole different thing.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

Right.

SPEAKER_03 33:49

So I spent several days, and of course, with my learning disability, reading the manual was almost like impossible, but somehow I faked my way through it. So I had to like make these, I had to make segments that would cycle together in a song, right?

Joey Stuckey 34:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:07

Uh but I didn't understand that if I wanted a drum fill, because I decided that at the end of a transition to set up the next section, I need I need to put a drum fill in.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Right.

SPEAKER_03 34:20

I didn't understand that I needed to put the drum fills inside the bar of a segment that I'm all that I've already programmed, right?

Joey Stuckey 34:27

Right.

SPEAKER_03 34:27

Right. So I make the drum fills as things that are complete that fall completely outside of a bar of music, which means that you've got like 16 bars and then a drum fill. A drum fill at the end of this, you know, of the 16th bar, right? Right, right. So you've got the did-di-d-d- that- did-do-do-da-di-d-d-d-d-d, you know, like this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I'm listening to it. I'm listening to what I play, what I what I um created, going like, oh my God, something sounds wrong, and I realized what it was. And then we were like, wait a second, that's actually kind of cool. You know, see, so it kind of breaks up the structure of the song without really without derailing the song in in any way. It kind of adds like a really interesting like little breath having these drum beats or having these drum fills outside of the beat itself. So we're like, you know, we're gonna, I think we're gonna keep this, right? Uh so at the beginning of the song, I wanted to program a I wanted to actually have a uh drum fill leading into the uh drum beat. And the drum fill that I was gonna program would go something like that, you know, just kind of like building up to it like a like a crescendo.

Joey Stuckey 35:51

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_03 35:52

Um so I I played it into the drum machine, and when it comes back, it goes like the drum fill didn't do what what I was what I wanted to do at all. It goes, did it, did it. And I'm like, oh Jesus, that sucks. And I listened back to it. I'm like, well, wait a minute. That's actually kind of cool. So we left it like that. I don't love this. This is yeah, which is why at the beginning, I know. I mean, I these things are so much fun, right? So that became that that actually became a thematic element of the song. The did it it it it it did it did it. Uh, which of course, when DXT put his turntable part down, he actually copied it. And he actually had a did it, did it, did it at the end of it. Yeah, yeah. That is amazing. I mean Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. And Laswell's bass line was essentially a vocal melody that came from a Pharaoh Sanders Sanders record called uh Taoheed. And uh he flipped it, he he he he played the bass part, the melody, exactly the way it is. This guy, I think it's a guy named Leon Thomas who was singing with Pharaoh Sanders. Um, the way Leo Leon Thomas sang it. But where he dropped the one never felt right, it always felt really strange. And uh I finally said to him, look, you know, like I think if you start the part on this beat here, it's gonna work. And he tried it, and immediately the whole thing started to click, you know. So the downbeat is like doom, you know, and and A like right on the on the downbeat, do-di-do-do-do, did-do, did-de-do-do, did-de-do-do, which sounds like a bass line, right? You know, right, absolutely. With with that happening on the one before that, he was he wasn't playing it on the one. I can't even remember how he did it because I don't remember how the vocal line goes. Yeah. Um, but uh everything things like that just sort of fell into place. Then we get the batadrum part on, and it was really funny because like I don't know if you're familiar with Afro-Cuban music at all.

Joey Stuckey 38:11

I am, I am, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:12

Okay. So when a when it when a percussionist plays, there's you know, there's usually like two or three different percussion instruments that are working together. If you listen to one of these instruments on its own, to what it's doing outside of the outside of the ensemble, yeah, it bears no earthly resemblance whatsoever to anything that sounds like it's in time or in groove or anything like that. You know, it just doesn't make sense. So this guy Daniel comes in, like he brings he brings congas and he brings these bata drums, which I'd never seen before, and I don't know if Bill had either. He's you know he took takes a whack on the batad drum, and we're kind of like, oh, for forget the congas. The batada, this drum is where it's at. This is the thing right here. So he's he's put he's laying down a traditional Afro-Cuban rhythm. So he does one track of it, and I'm listening to it going like, what is this shit? You know, it's it sounds so wrong. Like I'm like I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, is this guy like, does he know what he's doing? And then he puts the second one down, and I'm like, oh my God, that is so awesome. I'd never heard anything like it before. And I started to, it really gave me a profound appreciation for the complexity. I mean, the the apparent simplicity, but the complexity in terms of feel and groove between instruments that are played in, you know, in indigenous music forms, like how they kind of how they work together. And you know, if you the more African music you listen to, because obviously Afro-Cuban music is a derivative of West African music forms, like you really get to see how amazing and complex these music forms and and how the instruments play within them really are. You know.

Joey Stuckey 40:16

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I I was really lucky as a as a young musician um to have uh a guy, um Miguel Castro, um, who's a master percussionist in my life. And uh wow. And and and and so he just, you know, he he did things like we'll go live with tribes in Africa and like study how they played. Just, you know, and he's just a he's just a genius. He really, really is. And uh my state is so lucky to have him as an educator that they just don't know. They just don't know. But he's so good that I am spoiled. And yeah, you know, I don't want to hear anybody else play congas or anything else because his tone's so good, his timing's so good. I'm just spoiled. So I I think I'm really lucky in that that he introduced me to so many different, you know, tribal sounds and things that that ordinarily you wouldn't get a chance to experience.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

Yeah, that's incredible.

Joey Stuckey 41:09

Oh, he's I I love I love that you embrace these like things that happen unintentionally and give them a second chance. I think that's really I think that's really cool. I mean, you know, sometimes I'll listen to a record. Um I'm gonna out myself here and tell you that the first time I heard U2's Octum Baby, I was like, well, what the hell is this? And um, and you know, and actually it's a brilliant record. And uh and and and you know, it but it was so different than everything else they'd done. I had to let my preconceived notions just get shattered. And then once I listened to it a second time, I was open to all the cool things that it was doing. And and I I thought I was I I I learned a lesson there of like, you know, give it a chance before you say no. Like, like, you know, say yes to some of these weird things that happen. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:00

Yeah, I mean it's it's it's definitely worth it to to be open-minded, you know. But I also think that in the position of music producer as leader, yeah, because you're you're really in charge of supervise, you're supervising someone else's artistic vision. It's very dangerous to get entrenched in a viewpoint, in a personal viewpoint to become myopic in any way, shape, or form. I mean, with that said, you have to be very decision. It's imperative to be decisive and not be wishy-washy about stuff, which means that you get to walk a very narrow line and you have to be more conscious. I I'd say more conscious than anyone else on the project of what's going on from moment to moment, but but being able to kind of being able to pivot quickly, being able to reassess something, to temper your judgment, and also to be incredibly decisive and to be very final about anything that you that you do or say, those are cap those are qualities that I think are essential to being a music producer. And I think that they also they also have, even though they appear to be contradictory, they have to coexist in the same person in the same situation.

Joey Stuckey 43:21

Yeah, absolutely. Well, cognitive distance there. That's that's you know, I I I I think this is a beautiful segue to talking about your book uh that's out. And and and to talk about, you know, managing, I mean, I I I feel like half my job as a producer, and of course I hadn't done any, you know, big bands, um, you know, but uh, you know, my my well, that's right. Yeah, and and but but uh a lot of it I think is being psychiatrist to everybody. I mean it's like you know, keeping the session positive, keeping the session moving. But you know, when you when you deal with so many disparate, you know, personalities and stuff, it it's a real challenge. And I know you've talked about this with some other friends of mine, but I really would love to hear a little bit about the book and uh why you wrote it and maybe a story or two. And I really like your story at the risk of being redundant about when Chad Smith first came into the uh the picture. So I thought that was really fascinating. Um but why, why, how long have you been planning to write this book and why is now the reason that it's out?

SPEAKER_03 44:28

Well, I mean, first, uh to be fair, I've also written another book from a while back called Unlocking Creativity, which is kind of more of a philosophical approach to um music production, which is I'm sure hearing me talk about it, you can tell that's kind of what I'm entrenched in.

Joey Stuckey 44:43

Absolutely. That's wonderful.

SPEAKER_03 44:45

Yeah. But um as far as the one about the chili peppers, uh, Taste the Pain, I kind of this is this record is interesting because it really, over the I guess over the last 30 years, it's become sort of the redheaded stepchild of the red hat chili peppers discography. In the sense, not in the sense that like that there aren't people in the in the world who love the record, because I, as I've discovered, there are people who are like rabid about this, about this record. Not obviously very happy about that, you know. Um, but the chili peppers themselves have pretty much written it off. You know, it's their they they've kind of characterized it as kind of as their least favorite record, and there's a lot of mythologizing and kind of you know storytelling around the making of it that I think they sort of promoted. And I just kind of got to a point where I was sort of sick and tired of you know of reading that because so much of it's so much of it's just not true. Yeah, you know, and I was like, I I I just this is part of my legacy. It's an important record to me. It was my first major success as an independent music producer, and I just want uh this my story to be told. I just want people to know it. And then I started writing it. And as I started writing it, I was like, this is more than me just telling my story about the making of this book. This is really kind of outlining a process of record making and a st uh a history of working with people under extreme duress in situations that are that are kind of brutal. And I think I referred to it in the intro as kind of like a boots on the ground account, because that's really what it is. Sometimes it felt like being in a war zone.

SPEAKER_01 46:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:51

You know, and the one thing one of the things that people are really getting from the book, which is exactly what I, as I was writing it, I realized I was doing, was presenting not the technical aspects of making a record, which I think people that nowadays make way too much of a deal about, but the interpersonal aspects. You know, the psych the psychological aspect, which you'd mentioned a moment ago, you know, how you work with people that are um, you know, that and I'm not gonna use the word difficult because when you're in a creative situation in a group setting, shit is gonna get difficult. There's no there's no getting around this because you're dealing with people who at their very best are exposed emotionally and psychologically and stuff like that. And that's gonna put people in states of mind that they wouldn't normally be in. And of course, you're dealing with people, artists, who are already in a very heightened state, I guess you could say, for lack of a better word. Um so you add, you know, you you add all those ingredients to the pot, and you're dealing with something that is, you know, and it's a recipe, it's it's it's a dish that's constantly under pressure and could explode at any moment. And how you have, as a record producer or music producer, how you have to strategize ways to work around that, to help the artists, you know, to kind of keep things on an even keel and on their path and get the best out of the artist you can while not while trying to make sure that you don't limit or hinder them in any way, that you're trying to constantly create like a good open path for them to work uh and and and express themselves, you know, to help facilitate their vision as much as possible. Even if there are moments, and there obviously were plenty of those on this particular record, that operate at complete cross purposes with that goal, you know.

Joey Stuckey 49:00

Yeah I mean it it is it is a tricky situation because um you know, as as I mean, I got into the music business to be an artist. Um, and so my being a producer and a studio owner pays for my artist habit. And so and so, you know, so I I get it. I mean, you're these these songs are more than just a collection of notes. I mean, they they are direct, direct sort of deliverables from your soul. And they yeah, they they carry oh they carry an emotional baggage with them, you know, and and they and you have to you have to treat them, you know. I can say my kid's ugly, but you can't. I mean, you know, I mean it's that kind of thing, you know. You know, so uh so it's that kind of thing. So I I totally get that. And and there are times where you know tempers will will flare and and you know, and and and people work at cross purposes. And you know, I I'm not saying I'm not guilty of this myself, but but people latch on to little pet, you know, things that really don't matter in the grand scheme of things. Like, like somebody will say, Oh, I just have to have that drum fill. Uh it's gotta it's gotta be louder in the mix. And this this uh two-second guitar passage I played is the best thing on this song. You gotta get that louder in the mix. And you know, you get locked into some of that stuff, and you have to talk you have to talk people down sometimes. Hey man, we gotta, you know, everything can't be at the top, you know, some something's gotta take a supporting role here. But anyway, uh, but yeah, I I think I think that's really true. And you know, how you handle you know interpersonal skills is a is a big deal, and it's and there are long days and there are deadlines and life goes on outside the studio too.

SPEAKER_03 50:31

Yes, yes, and all that comes into the studio. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. In addition to whatever emotional baggage people bring into a recording, they're also dealing with your day-to-day lives. You know, you may have had an argument with your girlfriend or boyfriend that you know the night before or 15 minutes before you came to the studio. You know, what how is that going to temper the rest of your day working with a bunch of other people, especially if you have any kind of animosity, let's say, that's been building for a while toward one person on the project. Or you're just generally in a bad mood. You know, how do we handle what's that? Or exhausted, just or exhausted or all of the above, you know, or there are you know a thousand other ingredients that can affect how people how people work. You know, and then your job as music producer is to keep everyone in line, but also not to act as a parent or an authority figure to the extent where you're causing people to feel hindered or to feel judged or to feel under your thumb in some way. Because I, you know, we've all seen situations where someone takes this role as like a complete power trip and tries to dominate everyone in their immediate field. And it's like, and that yeah, I mean the funny thing is that I've seen people make very successful records that way. Um you know, so you can so in a way you can't argue with the with the methodology. Um, I mean, it that's one of the things that makes this process so fascinating is that we can sit here and say you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do that, but then there are people who go in and do exactly those things and wind up with with highly successful records and leave the artists, you know, psychologically broke.

unknown 52:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:25

You know, maybe breaking begin.

Joey Stuckey 52:27

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 52:28

You know, but at the same time, it's like the record was successful. You know, so so kind of like so in many ways there there aren't there aren't really rules. Like if you're a good manipulator and you're cruel and you like to psychologically torture people and you get in with people that are receptive to that kind of approach, you know, then I guess you've just landed your dream job again. And you know, I I'll say for me, that's not something that I favor because it makes me ill to kind of to to manipulate people like that. Right. You know? Um, but like I'm saying, like there's real there really aren't any rules. It's just a matter of like how much of a conscience you have and how much, you know, how how little trauma you want to lay on someone else whose work you're kind of shepherding.

Joey Stuckey 53:21

Absolutely. Well, I mean, what so it seems like and and and you know, the book is not on audio yet, but I know you said that you're working on it. I'm working on it, I'm working on it. I can't wait, I can't wait to read it. But the it seems like from my perspective uh of hearing you talk about this a little bit uh um some on with some other interviewers, that that there was a uh an issue with the band um you know consolidating around a drummer, that that was that was kind of a problem, you know, when you guys were supposed to be tracking that there maybe there wasn't the right drummer involved. What what what was that like? That's that is that correct? Is that the the right read?

SPEAKER_03 53:58

What had happened was is that one of the guys in the band OD'd, the guitarist, right? So we're down a guitarist. And uh, you know, so that was that was an issue. But then the next week the drummer is like, he says, I've had enough. You know, I didn't he every he he didn't want to be around more people dying from heroin because Anthony the singer was also still an active heroin addict. Uh and so he quits the band. So now there's the band is down to like 50%. So we had to find, they had to find a guitarist and a drummer. Uh they went through they they they got two guys in the band, both of whom were so miss desperately mismatched, it was awful. So I convinced them to let the guitarist that they had go, and they brought another guy in who is the guy who, John, who plays guitar with them now. And uh he was he he couldn't have been a more perfect fit for them. But the drummer that they had still wasn't the right guy, and uh it was very hard to convince them because they they worshiped this guy so much because he he had been the drummer for the dead Kennedys, who was a band who was very formative for them, this guy D.H. Polygro, a lovely guy, but you know, unfortunately, he was a junkie as well, and he didn't have the physical stamina or the chops to be able to keep up with these guys. So we had to audition drummers. And Chad, their current drummer, was like the last drummer on the last day of um auditions. And you know, he he passed the bill, although when he came into the studio, everyone took a look at him and was like, Oh my god, this guy is so out of place in this band, it's not funny. You know, but then he sat down at the kit and he started playing, and everyone's like, Oh, Jesus, this guy's a monster. Oh, he's he's incredible. He is incredible. He is, he's an amazing drummer, he's wonderful.

Joey Stuckey 55:54

Yeah, I mean, just ridiculous. And and and the tone and the consistency, and just you know, we go on forever about it.

SPEAKER_03 56:00

Yeah, he's one of the he really is one of the best.

Joey Stuckey 56:04

Yeah, and and and I mean, as a producer, so I I find this so fascinating that your role with the band, you know, continued outside of the studio when they were down personnel and and you had to help them to find new personnel. I mean, that that that seems very uh stressful.

SPEAKER_03 56:25

You know, let's let I mean I think we need to contextualize it a bit. Like, I didn't have to do any of that stuff. Yeah. That's not on my job. That those things aren't on my job descriptions list. Right. But you know, there were a couple of extenuating circumstances, one of which was the fact that like this is my second job, my second real job producing a full album as an independent music producer. Gotcha. I'm 27 years old at the time, 28, like one of the two. Anyway, like I'm I'm super hungry, you know, and like basically like throw anything at me. I'm just gonna do it because I have to, you know, I'm I just need to make my way in this in this world.

Joey Stuckey 57:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:13

And whatever happened to the band at that point, you know, we'd become friendly at that point, too. It wasn't like this, this was like a it wasn't just a job for me, like it had become personal, especially because of the dynamic that we developed on the first record that I'd made with them called the Uplift Mofo Party Plan. Like we went through, well, let's put it this way if you think if this story of making mother's milk sounds crazy to you, just wait till the book for the for the uplift record comes out. I'm excited. All right. That was that was that was insanity. Um, you know, but I developed a really close relationship with these guys. So from those points of view, in that context, if they had problems, those problems, whether I liked it or not, became my problems. I mean, I'd invested myself emotionally in what they were doing, who they were as people. And, you know, quite frankly, not just from an occupational perspective, but just as like as a friend, I wasn't going to let the these things sink them. And in hindsight, uh I I was way too personally invested in what was happening to the extent where I let it kind of take over my emotional state. And I became very, very absorbed in the project in a very in it in an unhealth to an unhealthy extent. I mean, I I think my decision-making process on the project was I was spot on with the choices that I made. How I delivered the, you know, the my my assessment of the situation sometimes was definitely lacking and could have been done better. You know, I think I was pretty immature in a lot of ways and didn't handle things well. But um no one else was gonna do this. You know, if the band had been left to their own devices, they would have stuck with the first choices that they made once Hillel died and Jack left the band, and they would have faded long ago into the sands of time. Uh, and no one would ever, ever have known who the Red Hat Chili Peppers were. They would have been like a footnote, if even that, in the history of modern uh pop music instead of being the you know, the the creative dynamos that they became. And I I'm gonna wear that. Yeah, yeah, I think that's if they hadn't been involved, no one would know who the red hat chili peppers were. Or are that it's as simple as that, you know. Yeah. They would have they would have stuck with the choices they made and they were on they were well on their way to makes to making some of the most mediocre, awful music anyone's ever heard.

Joey Stuckey 1:00:07

Yeah. And that's har that's hard to believe based on what they, you know, what they've done. It's it's it's it's so important to have someone in their corner that can help, you know, tell the truth.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:18

Yeah, well, it was it was me. I mean, I yeah, I think that their manager was wonderful. He was great, but I think at that point in time he was so fed up with them because they drove him absolutely batshit.

unknown 1:00:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:32

And you know, and their drama was too much. He all but checked out, really. Like he was just sort of he was he was there some of the time, but as far as like the decision making, he was like, I can't do it, you know. Yeah. So I had to be in there and I had to kind of I had to act like I had to basically be the captain, you know, and steer the ship.

Joey Stuckey 1:00:53

Well, somebody somebody had to. I mean, they didn't have to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:55

Somebody had yeah, yeah, somebody had to do it.

Joey Stuckey 1:00:57

And and it's it's often it's often a very thankless, you know, job to get in there and just keep the keep the boat afloat. I mean, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:06

Well, look, man, it depends on what your definition of of appreciation really is. Like this is, you know, we're talking about stuff that happened 40 years ago. Like when I look back on it and I get messages from people who are telling me how much they love this record that I made all those years ago and how it changed their lives, how this and that and the other, that's appreciation. You know, that makes me feel good, and that fills in the space where you know that that could have been filled in by you know the band saying, like, hey, we really appreciate everything you did and stuff like that, you know? Right, right. It's I'm okay with I'm okay with the way things wound up.

Joey Stuckey 1:01:49

Well, and that's the beautiful thing about music is is the the impact that it really has on people. And oh my god. You know, it's just such it's such a it's such an amazing thing. You know, I I am a brain tumor survivor, as I as you may or may not know. And so um, you know, spent my early childhood, you know, more in the hospital than out, and almost died a bunch of times. And music was always this source of inspiration and solace. And I credit my parents for you know introducing me to that and and to to making sure our house was full of music and joy. And uh and it's just it's just it's such a privilege to make music that that it you know impacts people. And and anytime you hear someone say, hey, you know, what you did was meaningful for me, that it makes all the other you know stuff that the ancillary kind of nonsense, it's all it makes it all worth it.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:42

I mean, you know absolutely, absolutely. There's no question. You know, like I I I realized I hadn't thought about this early on, but I realized that one of the reasons that I I started doing what I what I do and have done is that I I I I I started to understand that I I'm you know I that I'm basically like a paving stone in sort of like a larger continuum of of musical, of Western musical tradition and perhaps like world musical tradition in general. And I I just feel like in order to be in order to be that, it's imperative to try and do things in the interest of others. Like I wanted to inspire other people so they could carry on and do what they do and find the same kind of inspiration and the same kind of joy that I got from music when I was younger and how it really kind of took me through a lot of difficult times in my life, just the same way you're describing right now. I think that that's the greatest gift that we can give to people, you know. I really do, as people, as artists, you know, who are able to who are able to make something that that affects people, that people are come in contact with and and it affects them in a you know in a in a positive way.

Joey Stuckey 1:04:13

And and it's it's it really has no boundaries. It has that's why it's it's you know so frustrating sometimes to have everybody want to stick it in a little box and you know, and say, well, it has to be this or has to be that, you know, and and uh and that's that's the that's something you know I've I've sort of decided to lean into my eclecticism and just sort of just enjoy it and and just it's a tremendous mistake that people when people do that, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:38

And it's unfortunately that's become the rallying cry of of nearly all modern popular music. And the but the proof is really is really in the pudding, you know, like you you people make music now that has that doesn't have any lasting, any true lasting value. You know, I mean imagine people playing like black-eyed peas songs on like oldie stations and shit like that and like 20, 30 worlds. You know, I mean it's like the the music music that's contemporary now, it's doesn't have the same kind of emotional resonance that it had. It's easier to tune out. And it doesn't and it doesn't it doesn't hit one in the same in the same way emotionally that other music is made. I'm not saying that people should go back to making music that sounds like the stuff that was made, you know, 30, 40, 50, 60 years ago. You know, I feel that there are music traditions that we haven't seen yet that are yet to come that are going to kind of that are that are going to lean into that approach deeply. But I feel like we kind of have there has to be some kind of reconnection with the essence of intent, like why we're why it is that we're doing what we're doing, as opposed to just continuing making what sounds like music thinking that somehow that's going to be enough to kind of you know to kind of bridge the gap or or or maintain that continuum.

Joey Stuckey 1:06:09

When you when you take on a new client, when you when you produce a new record, do you have that conversation about about you know what is our intention? Like what you know why are we making this record? Is that a big part of what you do?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:24

Well I'm not producing records anymore. So um I I'm working with people on a cons on a on a consultancy basis now because I just I I'm not I don't get the same kind of satisfaction that I did out of making records, out of producing records. And I feel that there are way too many people that are producing records at this point that I don't feel the need to compete in that in that um in that sea. So I'm in a I find myself in a different relationship with artists. If we if that's kind of the basis on which we're we're meeting then that is a very important part of any conversation to to be had. I think now based on how things are and how people make records I think it's very important if an artist is doesn't have a clear vision themselves it's important to approach them with that. Like what are you doing? Why are you doing this? What's the point to this? You know are you just making a bunch of songs because you feel like making a bunch of songs or is there something inside of you that needs to get said that needs to come out that you can't repress anymore?

Joey Stuckey 1:07:43

Yeah I mean that's it. For me it's a spiritual compunction. I mean it's it's something that has to be done for me to feel truly myself. Yeah. Yeah. It's an obsession but it's it's a positive one.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:56

Well yeah I mean it's a yeah a compulsion because keeping it in would be more detrimental to your to your well being than letting it out.

Joey Stuckey 1:08:08

Exactly yeah yeah and and so when you consult what is that what does that look like? I think that's fascinating that you've that you've moved from the production into sort of you help guide the whole process these days or what's what more or less it sort of depends on what the artist needs.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:24

Like I decided that I wasn't going to get into this whole thing of of kind of haggling over um you know how much you're gonna pay me to produce a record, how much time you're gonna need, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all the kind of stuff that normally goes into producing a record. I was like, I'm offering very, very discrete services with um you know with with a with a time and a financial a financial kind of like framework involved. So if someone goes on my website and seeks out services page, they're gonna find services that they can actually purchase right there as opposed to kind of inquiring about them and seeing how much I charge for them because I'm just not I'm not about that anymore. Like I think for me at any rate I just like to put everything on the surface and make it clear so that there's no so that there's no mystery to any of it. I'm just sort of I I think that at least for me I'm past that stage now. And I think it's a good way to it's a it's a good way to work because then an artist knows exactly what it is they're dealing with. There's no there's no like guesswork involved at all. And it's kind of like you know I mean it's it's like ordering food off a take you know takeout menu.

Joey Stuckey 1:09:41

Yeah. Which I actually I enjoy that. Yeah yeah I think that makes a lot of sense and you know managing expectations and being clear just eliminates so much stress. Yeah exactly exactly it takes away I I gotta hit you with one last thing before I let you go. I could talk to you for hours and uh well yeah we probably could I mean you know and and I've what a pleasure and privilege it's been but I have to ask you this and I will be I'm gonna be honest I ask this to everyone because I'm so fascinated by all the different answers I get I have very definite views myself but what do you think about the our our our latest disruptor in the music industry not the player piano or the phonograph but AI what do you what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:24

What I think about it is it's a tool you know it's a tool like any other tool and you can use a tool in a good way and you could use it in a bad way. You know I think this particular tool has a lot has many different connotations to it. And one of the big things about AI isn't so much what it does, but how it's being brought to market. You know I think that because of how it's been brought to market and who's bringing it to market and what their I guess philosophical sort of bent, how they've kind of presented themselves and their product, it's created a tremendous upheaval. One of the issues with AI in relationship to music is the fact that it was all the money that was sunk into it by the music industry from the beginning was in the interest of being able to generate copyrights that were solely owned by the music company. That there would be no pesky artists involved or anything like that that you know that no there'd have to be no royalties paid out no contracts to haggle over no lawyers having to deal with artists and stuff like that and you know it it would it would be a way of cutting of of cutting costs while generating phenomenal amounts of profit. Of course we know that there's one wrinkle in all that or I should say one wrench in the works and that's that the um from a legal standpoint the copy you know judges um overseeing copyright um cases have have ruled that unless a piece of music has a human hand in it and they can detect what it is, you can't copyright a piece of AI composed music. So there's no way that anyone can generate a copyright from that or I should say generate a piece of music if you want to call it that and and turn and and make it and make it a copyrightable piece of work. So already the music company's lost on that point which I'm I think is I think is wonderful. I mean it doesn't stop people from doing it anyway they just can't make it into something that they're going to generate revenue from in that way. Obviously there's other ways to do it but um the you know it's uh when you give something to people and it's presented the way that I think technologists are presenting it. And technologists by and large are people who are not like um they they're not like art patrons in the past or you know people who have money who were kind of you know they're in competition with art creators at this point, you know, because they don't because they see art creation as something that any kind of work I think is perceived outside of cr outside of creating technological advances is seen by technologists as work, you know, stuff that workers do. And if a worker does it does a job it's something that a machine can ultimately replicate or do better. So it's so so people who are who are in that are are seeing music as something that's largely replaceable something that can be um that can be done by a machine. And I mean obviously they're they're proving to it they're proving this to an extent that you can create all the superficial elements of a piece of music and replicate them in a way. You obviously still can't create anything that's got a groove because how's that going to work? You know the fact of the matter is is that like AI uses the internet to be you know to scrapes the internet looking for data that it can tokenize and compile into something that gives you the kind of result that you think that that it thinks it thinks that it that you've prompted it to provide you with. But it's like yeah I mean that's a that's a really good sounding demo you've got there you know but ultimately a machine is not going to be able to communicate anything. A machine's got nothing to say. It hasn't lived the li it hasn't lived the human life it hasn't had human experiences. You know by virtue of what it is all those things are impossible. You're not gonna get a whole bunch of like electric like trillions of of you know microvolts voltages to kind of to philosophize and think up a really clever lyrical couplet that makes a person go oop you know or Joni you know or or or write a song like that that that has the same kind of emotional impact as like blue by Joni Mitchell. Like it's it's it's not it's not gonna happen. Like I think that it's really up to artists now because people in record companies aren't going to do shit about it. You know they're basically all they give a shit about all they care about right now is profit. You know if people lose their lose work if people stop being able to make money playing music they they couldn't be bothered. They're not in the business of trying to sell music at this point. They're in the business of trying to generate money any which way that they can you know they they don't I mean the fact that you can still find CDs for sale is kind of like a is miraculous you know because that's not they're not making money off it. I think at this point they're making more money off selling you know vinyl records. Yeah oh yeah um so I I think it's uh it's down to people finding ways to use AI creatively and uh where ai shines is in the ability to do things for artists that they aren't good at, that they may have trouble with. And usually those are those pertain more to logistics stuff you know to logistic things. Being creative, I think that that's really sort of like a gap that you that that it that an individual artist would would find to fill for themselves. What AI is going to do if things work out well is it's going to showcase the necessity of having human beings create art and do things. Because one thing that we're starting to see is that when companies fire a whole bunch of people because they know that they're replaceable by AI and it's going to save them money, guess what happens? Just the opposite. People are starting to find out that it's more expensive to get a to get AIs to do the jobs of all the people that they fired. So they're ultimately spending more money to have AI do the same jobs and they have to start hiring people back. Ultimately human labor is going to wind up if things are done properly, which I think a lot of people still aren't and they still have this idea that they can automate all these like human previously human processes it's going to highlight the fact that human labor is still the most is still the most important thing.

Joey Stuckey 1:19:38

Human brain work is still at the top of the heap and human creativity is still absolutely essential to maintaining a healthy and ultimately sane humane society I could not agree more with that and and it's it really is true with with the the frustration now of customer service uh and you get stuck with AI chatbot and you just get in the loop and you can't you can't get a real person to talk to and you're sitting there for days with no solution to your problem it but it but it it it it really is true and I think you're right I think the I think the absolute health of a society can be uh distilled from the health of its artistic uh output and in the sense of you know stuff that's meaningful and and stuff that's you know inspiring people. That's absolutely correct and that's I I think that's so true. And and and you know I'm I mean I unapologetically a humanist you know I've gotten a lot of hate about this on Facebook people are hating me for some of this but I just you know I just said for being a humanist? Yeah they're like oh you're afraid of technology it's like I am not afraid of technology I love technology um and and I I said you know I as a blind man I love I love my screen reader. I mean if I didn't have a screen reader uh I wouldn't be able to do half the things I do so I love technology but I I don't love the this sort of um uh dehumanizing value that some of the companies you know the way they're trying to roll it out and make it integral to everyday life and and and and and and I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole but I mean I've read some manifestos from some AI companies and it's pretty Palantir one absolutely it's pretty messed up.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:21

Those guys are psycho I mean that guy Alex Carp is like he's a waste of like protoplasm I was he's just unremittingly evil and I think I agree these guys like I think that they they don't they don't just revel in how evil they are I think they revel in the fact that they're better they're superior just because they've made money yeah you know just because they've made money somehow that that puts them up on like this kind of pedestal and it's kind of like you guys are still a bunch of schmucks like you're still you're still a bunch of asshole nerds that girls wouldn't go out with absolutely you know when you were in high school and you know that that you're basically still taking that out on the rest of the world. It's like you guys are like assholes you know or did you ever read Mad Magazine when you were younger no I couldn't see oh wait no I forgot you they didn't I don't think they had a braille version of Mad Magazine they I had a braille version of Playboy but it was just the articles so yeah what a shame um you would think braille would be perfect for that kind of thing but oh well mad did a version of Superman called Super Duperman and the guy and and his and Clark Bent super super duperman's alter ego is some guy who just crawls around the office of this new this newspaper all day long cleaning out spittoons and stuff like that. So he's like this like this pathetic loser. And at the end like he's defeated this bad guy and he's like gone up to Lois Payne girl reporter who's like you know the super hot girl you know who wouldn't give him the time of day as Clark Bent and says you know would what wouldn't you give now for me to sniff your perfume and stuff like that and she just knocks him over and she says she calls him a creep she says get out of you know she says once a creep always a creep I that that that is absolutely right and you know that's basically Alex Carp, Elon Musk, all these guys once a creep, always a creep. I mean when you look at them especially when you look at them in their younger days before they had plastic surgery or whatever you know they look like a bunch of losers.

Joey Stuckey 1:23:33

Well you know it's just it's so sad that there's such a disconnect um uh uh from from like the human you know spirit with these guys it just it just perplexes me and and and it really you know the Sunos kind of offends me too where the CEO's like oh making music's too hard and nobody wants to practice an instrument and yeah I know and he's kind of and it's so funny to hear someone talk like that from an authoritative position because all of a sudden they're they're so they're wealthy.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:03

You know they've got more money than they could have ever dreamed of having and that gives them that somehow gives them the license to be able to talk like that. It's like wait you so you so you're basically that money didn't get still didn't make you any smarter because you must have always been this stupid do you understand that to be a musician you have to spend time doing it.

Joey Stuckey 1:24:27

This is part of the process if you don't understand a process then you shouldn't even bother doing what what you're doing it's like you mean so in other words that means that you you came up with Suno overnight right it happened quickly everything in your life is just a function of desire full you know wish fulfillment instant like gratification and you think that that's what life is about and that's like our sole goal as like you know as human beings is to create like enhanced wish fulfillment for everyone to be able to you know to be like um Neo in the in the matrix and you know you know take those glasses off and go I know kung fu exactly you know what I mean it's like that's how it and that's how it's going to be in the future you put a bunch of glasses on your head the you know the the neural link chick chip in your head starts buzzing you take the glasses off and you go like I know kung fu it's I think and and this is my perspective and we'll we'll close on this but my perspective as a brain tumor survivor you know is like some of the struggle um while I'm not suggesting that it's good to be blind or you know uh something I wouldn't recommend but but some of the struggle is is what creates some of the beauty um when you learn how to be grateful and you learn how to be in the moment and you learn how to you you learn through adversity how to like really really start living.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:57

And um this is how you learn. Yeah that's what life is about my son hates school he's eight he can't stand school you know it's like you know he likes things that are easy for him. Yeah he's eight years old I mean that's par for the course of course you know when when you're that age and you don't understand the importance of striving for all although with that said I mean like he's you know he's been able to achieve like in less than two years he's got like a blue belt and like Aikido and stuff like that. Nice. He just happens to love it so much but I'm like Marius do you understand how much effort you've put into achieving this this kind of stuff just doesn't drop in people's laps otherwise everyone around you in your class would have a blue belt like you in less than two years. Like that's that's how much effort you put into it how much effort you're capable of putting into something else. But that's the whole point of even being here is the effort that you put into all the processes that are that have value to you you know and that you actually can find yourself inside of that right I agree with that a million percent I think that's I think obviously you you not being able to see and having had a brain tumor those are highly regrettable things. They're things that we don't wish on someone I certainly wouldn't wish that on you but look what you've done with it. Yeah you know what you've done with it is you've turned it into a net positive by reorienting the way you look at it. Absolutely which is basic which is how people essentially live their lives and are able to achieve stuff you know right yeah and that's and that's that's what we do in making records it's it's the same kind of thing. Exactly I mean if I hadn't had that outlook on stuff and the more kind of pushback I got the more I didn't go out you know say like well I'm gonna try even harder now I we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

Joey Stuckey 1:27:55

Absolutely well I do have one last thing to tell you a dear friend of mine And it's and and a dear friend of mine wanted to make sure that I told you hello. And that is uh my friend Tom TK hit uh from Atlanta, Georgia. And he wanted to tell you hello, and and he he just said to make sure that I told you hello, and uh that he saw um one of the consoles that he he had worked on and that you had for a while um was was up on sale from one of the boutique uh websites. So um he just he just saw it the other day and and thought and thought of you. So he wanted to make sure I told you hello.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:31

Oh well thanks. I mean, anything, any recording equipment that I had is gone now. I've sold everything.

Joey Stuckey 1:28:39

So do you do do you I'll I'll just ask you this one last question, I swear. But do you do you still mix or or or do any of that stuff just like for your own edification?

SPEAKER_03 1:28:50

Um I never had any edification as a mixer or uh what no, what I not being an engineer, because I've never I the few times that I've tried to engineer, it's been a catastrophe. Um I mean honestly that's one of the reasons that I stopped that I stopped producing because the expectation is too high that you're going to be an engineer producer or producer engineer. Got it. And my brain won't do won't let me do that. Like it's gonna be one or the other. What I will do is work with an engineer to up their game, and that's where stuff gets interesting. Yeah. So the answer to your question is yes, I do that. I do it, I work remotely uh with people one when when they're on a mix. And uh that goes really well.

Joey Stuckey 1:29:44

Well, I'm just I just want to make sure that uh along with the consulting that you're still uh you're still able to enjoy that that part of your oh no, it's so much fun.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:54

Like I've got a room in my house. I've got like I mean, I'm sure people have much better hi-fi systems than this, but like I have got the most badass hi-fi system. It is so good. Like, I'll just sit here and listen to music and thank God that I was able that I'm able to have this in my life. It is so good. It just everything sounds exactly the way I want it to sound. That's great. And basically, see because the thing is is that all most of what I did as a producer was give an opinion about what I was hearing.

Joey Stuckey 1:30:35

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:36

You know, I can do the same thing from like 2,000, 5,000, 10,000 miles away. It doesn't make any difference because I can get a 48 I can get a 48k uh 24-bit um stream of a recording session in here. And I I've got a device that up samples that upsamples it to 705 kilohertz, you know, at 24 bits. So like the audio fidelity is absolutely phenomenal. You know, I can hear yeah, it it really is, and it it just sounds so good, you know. So I can I can oversee like a recording session, a mix session, whatever, and I I do that stuff and I enjoy it very, very much.

Joey Stuckey 1:31:22

That is fantastic. Well, I have spent all my money at the studio, so my home hi-fi system is pretty crappy, but but well, it's part for the course, I think. Yeah, well, you know, when you go and buy uh a telefunken 251, you can't you can't afford no speakers at your house.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:39

If you get a if you get a old telefunk in 251, you can't even afford a house.

Joey Stuckey 1:31:46

My friend, what a pleasure it has been to speak with you today. And I'm so appreciative of your time. I'm so glad that you made music for a living and that you've brought us so many wonderful records. My pleasure. It's it's I hope to see you again soon.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:58

Oh, absolutely, man. I look forward to it. It's great talking to you.

Joey Stuckey 1:32:01

Great talking to you. You have a wonderful day, and thanks for being on the show. We appreciate you.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:05

My pleasure, sir.