Joey Stuckey 0:00

Welcome once again to the Stuck on Sound Podcast. Man, I have a treat today. I have reeled in a very amazing person that I'm honored to call friend and honored to know. And he's really, and this is this is the truth, almost always the smartest person in the room. And it's my friend Jonathan Weiner. Welcome to the program, my friend.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Thank you. It is a pleasure to be here with you. And um, you didn't have to reel too hard. I'm always happy to talk to you, Joey.

Joey Stuckey 0:30

I appreciate that, my friend. You know, I want you, I'm gonna I'm gonna remind you of the deep dark past of 2018. And um I um I have been following you uh for many moons with some of the different videos you've been doing for Isotope and just different, you know, just different things I'd seen you do. And uh you always were so so thoughtful and interesting and and and such a great educator, very making things very easy to understand. And I uh I I was we were all with John Crivet at a conference in Connecticut, and I made it my I heard that you were there. And as a blind person, of course, it's hard for me to come up to you and find you and that kind of thing. So I got the chance to perform and demonstrate the wax cylinder recording. I remember at the end of it. I said, by the way, I hear Jonathan Weiner is here, and he's a rock star to me, so make sure you come shake my hand. And that's how we became friends. Oh wow. And uh and so and you did. You you uh you you uh followed direction quite well. Um so I I I have you know, I have two big things on my agenda today with you. And um, you know, we're not gonna talk about the compromising photos and all that, but we are going to um, I mean, honestly, I took them, so we don't know how good they are.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Um yeah, and I I I lead such a non-glamorous life. I mean, so if you can make it more glamorous or more controversial, like go for it, Joey.

Joey Stuckey 1:56

Oh, sweet, I'll do that. But listen, my friend, I am the most boring musician ever. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't take drugs that are the ones that keep me from dying. I mean, I am so boring. But anyway, um, I I just want to get, you know, you have been to me uh a real pioneering force in uh technology and how to use that technology and and the various ways uh that we that we do what we do in in our industry. Um of course you've served as an AES president and all these other things, but uh what I want to hear about first um is I want to hear about you know how you got into our business and uh and and you know what what drew you and what's kept you. So those are the that's that's the first order of business is hear about young Jonathan Weiner and and uh what crazy thing led him to do all these cool things.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

I mean, the crazy thing, you know, it's it's um boy, there's like uh two or three versions of this story for me. Uh both are all very seriously. Yeah, I mean, like one of them is you know, I growing up when I did in the 1960s and 70s, when um and I grew up in a house full of music, and it wasn't it it was some of it was challenging music, some of it was the music of the of the culture of the day. But like technology um and the the way that it helped people make interesting new music was always something that was in like in my environment. I mean, I remember listening to some of the earliest like temptation records. Um, uh Ball of Confusion is this song that starts with all this like delays and like the earliest version of sound design in in pop music. And I was like, you know, that kind of thing would set my brain on fire. Like, okay, what's this is not something you would find in nature. It's it it but it makes me feel something like what is going on here. But the day that um we had a substitute teacher walk into the um music class that I was taking in high school, and he was a trombonist who had a microphone drilled into his mouthpiece that he would plug into an ARP 2600. Oh my gosh. And run it through the filter section. Wow. And that and seeing that happen live in front of me, and this is probably 1975, and I was like, oh my God, what is happening here? I need to sort of think hard about what possibilities it opens up in the world. And so that was that was sort of one version of the story is stimulating this idea for me that technology opened up creative possibilities. And I saw it right in front of me, and I wanted to be doing that. Um, and a lot of my earliest like music heroes, like some of the early Brian Eno records that he made, which were sort of like these weird, this is way before the ambient stuff, and um and you know, like early Roxy music and some of the early Bowie records, and that that was all fascinating to me. And so the the second version of the story, and and this is something, you know, I I still kind of am living this part out, and that is you know, I started out thinking I was I was gonna be John Lennon, right? I mean, I was like, I w I was gonna be a rock star, I was gonna be, you know, like one of my heroes, but frankly, I was too shy. And I was not, I was not John Lennon, and I was not creative in the same way, or maybe I was, but I didn't have all the gumption to step out on stage and fully inhabit the sort of notion of being an artist. So the next best thing for me was working with music and working with other people's music. And so um, the entry point for me professionally, once I came out of college with a degree in French orn performance and music composition, was to find other people who were making interesting music and work with them on their music. Because I had an ear, I had a, you know, uh somewhat developed musical vocabulary. Um and so that sort of predisposed me to be more of a producer and an engineer than the person on the other side of the glass in front of the microphone. Um, and then the third version of the story is you know, because I was interested in both those things, I went to a short um workshop program in Ohio called the recording workshop and Chilla Coffee. And it was a six-week program, and I didn't really know anything about proper recording technology or workflows or anything like that. And I figured in six weeks, I could figure out whether this is something that's really interesting to me. I thought it might be, but I didn't really know anything about it. And by the way, this is now 1982. There were no programs around the country like you find now at, you know, SAE or Berkeley or Folesale or Miami Frost or like USC, you know, like there was nothing. This was like the the notion that it was actually that you could have a job working professionally producing music just didn't exist. Anyway, I went to the program and within a week I was like, holy cow, you I, you know, this is it. You cannot tear me out of this place, uh, tear me away from it. I want to be here all the time doing this, and I want to learn how to do it better. And I was in the studio 25 hours a day. And um, and then by the end of the course, I guess I made myself known well enough so they said, would you please stay and teach? And so I had the advantage of spending two years shoring up what I thought I had learned in the program. Um, you know, one of the great things about teaching is you learn a great deal because you have to understand what you're doing in order to explain it to somebody else. Um and so I stayed and I taught and I invited bands from the area to come in and produce an engineer and some, you know, be subjects for for what we were doing in the school. And I developed relationships with musicians and started making records, and some of them, by the end of my time there, I found my way to placing uh records with some emergent indie labels. So that was the launching pad. Um, so it's all those three things, like love music and technology, love music, period. Um, you know, uh having the musical vocabulary, but I was not going to be the star. Um and then, and then, you know, and then once I sort of found my way into music technology, which allowed me to sort of combine all of that and express all of that, I was like, okay, this is it. This is what I have to do. And I it was like, this is what I have to do. Yes, yes, it was not optional for me. That's exactly right. And you know, there's some every so often I'll hear somebody say, you know, I think I might want to be in in music, but I also might want to be a lawyer. And I'm like, look, if you really think you might want to be a lawyer, like be a lawyer and music will be there for you because like making a life in music is really hard. It is. Um, but if it's your own, if it's the only option, like it is for some of us, okay, figure it out. Yeah, yeah.

Joey Stuckey 9:22

I I love this because um that that is totally my experience, essentially, as well. Uh, you know, all I all I want to do is make records. This really, it's just that simple. All I want to do is make records. Now I've had to wear a couple different hats, you know. I mean, basically what I do. You know, I I I work as a producer, engineer, uh, uh educator, session musician, whatever. And that pays for my habit of being an artist. You know, so so uh, you know, that's but but I but I love it. That's all I've wanted to do since, you know, I was about, well, about 13, I got interested in uh sound, and uh I just took some really cheap stuff that you know the micro the microphone cords had you have were built into the microphone and they you know they cost 20 bucks a pop. And yeah, I had two of those and a mixer. I had a mixer that had three channels and they were volume up, volume down. That was that was pretty much it. And I just used the scientific method of what happens if I do this? What happens if I do that? I don't I didn't know what I was doing. I just got in there and started playing. But I I love that now. Did you consider yourself with with the musical background, uh, as with the theory and and the performance experience and stuff like that? I mean, are you are you mostly working as a producer or are you mostly working as an engineer, or what's where do you tend to find yourself?

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Well, you mean now? Yeah. Um I mean, I've spent so over the last 25 years, I have been equal parts educator, um, involved in audio technology and development and um and working on records with people. Um and and the the thread that I just you know we'll we'll just call out one more time and then let it drop is the the making music and being the artist is still out there for me. And eventually that's something I will find my way back to. But um, but otherwise, you know, everything I do constellates around audio and technology and music. Um, but some days I find myself like consulting and talking about uh the quality of the output of a system or the user experience. And is it really good, you know, does it work for creative people? Some days I'm sitting down with a class, helping them understand and breaking down the tasks involved in mixing or mastering. Um and then and then some days I'm sitting down and with a client and working on a record.

Joey Stuckey 11:47

That's awesome. I mean that that well that's that's that's that's exactly what you want to do. I love that. What if did you when did you get involved with AES? Because I think that's such an important organization to be part of.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Um because I first you know, suddenly I first joined AES, I think it was 1985. Yeah. Um and it's only because somebody told me that I would I should. Um I didn't really uh I didn't really understand what AES was, except, okay, so this is the organization where people who are interested in what I'm interested in join. Um and so, okay, I'll join and I'll I'll figure it figure it out. And the same was true of the recording academy. Um and you know, in the early days, you know, when you're young and don't have any money, the things that are really meaningful when you join an organization are discounts and t-shirts or you know, like the the you know, and maybe maybe free stuff, although you know there weren't any plugins back then. Everybody likes swag. There wasn't there wasn't too much free stuff. Um but but also the access to people. You know, now when when I joined, I was like, okay, I'm in the club where the people that I read about in the magazines are showing up, you know, either in the magazine or at a convention. Um and so I don't you know, my my um I was a member and a participant, but I it didn't occur to me until I was seven or eight years in to think about um, you know, do I have something to contribute here? And so um, and this was actually for me, it was in the very early days of uh DVD audio um and the sort of new um the sort of post-CD formats that were coming out. And I was like, you know, I've been doing this for a little bit, so let me propose a talk at an AES convention um on this topic, because it was a place I was developing a little bit of expertise, and lo and behold, my talk my topic was accepted. And and that helped me understand two things. One is it was validating, but also if you want to participate in something, offer to do so. Like some people don't, you know, propose talks because they don't think that they kind of are worth worthy of it. Um but you you'll you'll never be invited to it until you raise your hand and say, hey, I want to participate, and this is something I want to participate in and I want to be helpful. And the funny thing is with an organization like AES, which is volunteer-led and volunteer run, um, when you raise your hand and say, I want to help, more often than not, the answer is yes. So that set me on a path to become more involved with the organization.

Joey Stuckey 14:38

Yeah, and and you know, generally speaking, I I have found that all these high-level, you know, uh amazing, brilliant people are usually pretty generous with their time and talent as well. And they will they will take time with you, and you will be, you know, you will have no uh you won't be on the same playing field, but they will they will take time with you. And I I really appreciate that. I mean, that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Um Yeah, I mean, this is and this is another thread and part of the story for me is that you know, you're probably familiar with the there is a little bit of a a tendency among some of our people in our community to be protective. Right. Protective of their client lists, protective of of what their techniques of what they do. And like, you know, it's understandable, but it also is not helpful um in the context of mentorship and sort of creating community and sharing. And I found that very frustrating when I was young. Yeah. So I I committed myself to to never feel like um to never hold back and never feel like I had any secrets. I mean, I sort of feel like ultimately the secret that everybody has, the secret sauce is who you are and and how you do the work that you do. It's not the way you use a particular piece of gear.

Joey Stuckey 16:04

I could not agree more. And and it's it's it's the it's the ears, it's the hands, it's the knowledge, it's the the spirit, all these things combined in a unique being that makes it different. And you'll be right for some projects and not right for others, and yeah, that's fine. Uh you know, that's that's that's absolutely okay. And I mean, you know, like I tell clients all the time that look, I I do hip hop well, um, but it's not, I'm not like a genius at it. Like, I'm not gonna break any new ground. I'm gonna do a good job. It'll be a good record. But if you are looking for someone to break new ground, you you should probably go to Dr. Dre or somebody. I mean, you should, you know, you should probably go to somebody that like, you know, eats, sleeps, and breathes, and then like will break new ground and do something amazing that I never thought of. So, you know. So I mean, there, you know, we all have our wheelhouse and everything, but I I do love how much you educate and uh and everything. And I and I wonder um when you when you have a chance to to teach, um, you know, what is the thing that you really want people to grasp? I mean, what what is like the core philosophy of the Jonathan Weiner universe of audio?

SPEAKER_01 17:12

You know, it's funny. I just um I just published a substack um which was made up of I I I gave Claude, the Claude AI, kind of my bio and some links to things and looking at the Are You Listening series and said, you know, how would you describe my philosophy? And it did a really good job. It sort of it gave this, and so I just published it because I was like, because it did a great job, not sort of talking about me in an egotistical way, but describing the things that are important to me. So the things that I don't, you know, the things that I always encourage, I mean I want to encourage curiosity, I want to encourage experimentation, I don't want to feel people to feel like there's a gate. I've I want people to ask the right questions. And in order to ask the right questions, sometimes you have to spend some time understanding things, whether it's doing a lot of deep listening, um, so that you can you know figure out what you might want to hear and how you how to get the thing that you want to hear. Um, like how do I achieve the sound? But but in order to ask that question, you have to understand what that even means. Um and ultimately for me, like when I teach around audio technology, the the main, the the primary focus is what do you want to hear? And then you figure out how to get there rather than experimenting or focusing on the technology, because the technology is just a vehicle. And I know that this is not a new concept, but I think it's very easy for us to get caught up in the in learning about the technology and mistaking the technique with the technology for the result. Um and certainly when you're teaching, the easiest thing as a teacher is, you know, you deconstruct like a user interface and say, okay, to get a signal, push the blue thing, push up the red thing, slide the yellow thing, and then you've got a thing. And it's like, well, that's that's fine, but you know, that's that that doesn't really tell us anything about what's important about the activity. Um and the thing that's also important to me is is to help people understand concepts, not in an abstract way, but concepts so that when they are presented with a new DAW or a new console, they they know what to look for to achieve the work, um, as opposed to being completely, you know, thrown by the fact that this is like a new device and they don't they don't really understand what it's doing because they don't understand what they want to do.

Joey Stuckey 19:58

Gotcha. Do do you, I mean, you know, this this I I I have a suspicion, I know the answer to this question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. Do you prefer analog technology, digital technology, or a combination of the two? I mean, do you have any preferences there? It's a bullshit question.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

Sorry. I had to. You know, this this is one of those things that um It's the thing that will start a brawl at an audio conference.

Joey Stuckey 20:24

That's what I like.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

So it in some of my classes, I will actually start the class, um, depending on the topic that we're teaching, by asking people to tell me what the difference is. Yeah. And um and they struggle. Sure. Um, because they start pointing to like, you know, the aesthetic capabilities of analog or digital. And with very few exceptions, you can achieve the same thing with either kind of technology. Yeah. Um, there's certain things that are endemic to digital, like Alias saying that you don't get an analog, so you have to work harder in digital to sort of get saturation that sounds like analog. But um, you know, the fact of the matter is we're starting with waveforms, we're ending with waveforms, and whether the waveforms that we per and the thing that we perceive is manifest in voltage or in numbers, um, or in you know, magnetic flux, um, it's all just waves going through the technology. So I I I you know I start from the premise of, you know, what do you want to hear? Can you get there with the thing that's in front of you? Now, if you came to my studio, you would notice that I have four pretty nice analog processors and a whole bunch of digital ones. And I will use whatever um gear I think best suits a project. I will make choices. And and usually those choices are like if I choose to use analog, I'm looking for a particular color and I'm willing to accept. The signal loss that comes out with using analog comes along with using analog as opposed to digital. And if I, you know, if I want stability and repeatability and convenience, I will choose digital. And frankly, technical sort of a superlative technical performance. Like if I've got a great symphonic recording with a very deep sound field, there's no way I'm coming out analog. Because you you will lose detail and you will lose some information. Some of it gets filtered out inevitably by coming out analog in a way that is not acceptable for me. So um so the answer to your question, you know, is always taken in the context of what the project is. Um you know, maybe 30 years ago your qu we could actually answer your question because like A to D converters really were bad. So like coming out analog was was once you were in digital, coming out again was really a problem. Um But nowadays, like the technology is just so good on both sides. Um so you just gotta have a deep understanding of what each gives you and then make a decision for what works for the project.

Joey Stuckey 23:21

Yeah, I I find for me, you know, I I I basically my answer to that question is pretty much whatever gets me to the sound I want the quickest. Um and and then the other the other the other side though is that I will say, um, you know, as a blind person, really uh the more consistent experience as far as accessibility goes is the analog gear that doesn't change its function based on the screen.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

So so yeah, that's a that's I get it. That's amazing.

Joey Stuckey 23:51

Yeah, so I so I mean, you know, once I once I know, you know, like the third knob for the left always does the same thing, that that can be, you know, part of the equation for me. It's like, well, okay, this plugin is awesome, but unfortunately it doesn't work with a screen reader or whatever. And I'm like, well, okay, so if my side of the system's not there, I'll just go grab a analog thing that I know you know is gonna work. So there's there's there's a piece of that puzzle as well. But you know, uh, but yeah, I I think basically, you know, what you're saying is what I've been saying, which is, you know, whatever gets you to the sound you want, the, you know, that's use it. Use that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

But you said something really um, I think meaningful in that it it's whatever gets you to the sound quickest. Yeah. You know, there are analog devices are almost always macros, um, because not only is it the circuit that helps you change the sound, but on the interface, especially if you have transformers um on the front end or the back end or or something that also changes the character of the sound, you're doing more than one thing all at once. And in digital, you know, there are um plugins that kind of replicate that notion of a macro, but also in digital, you can pull things apart. And like if you like phase rotation that you find in a tape plugin, you can just pull up a phase rotation plugin and get control. So that sort of notion of the analog being a macro to get you there quickly, if if it's the right characteristic of sound that you're after. Um, I think that's a a cool way to put it.

Joey Stuckey 25:21

Well, and and do you do you, Jonathan, do you suffer from gear envy? Do you do you lust after any particular microphones or because I I I I have a problem and I need intervention. I mean, really. I mean, my I've gone from wanting to have platinum records to only to dying with one more microphone than Sylvia Massey. That's I've pretty much got changed my whole goals now. Yeah, listen, I mean, forget it.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Sylvia, Sylvia has already won.

Joey Stuckey 25:45

So I mean, I've lost I know I've lost.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

That's right. I mean, and and sure, there was a there was a time when I thought, oh, maybe I need one of those too. But here's here's my my way of sort of dealing with the question about what do you need versus what do you want. Right, right. And that is, you know, if if you are um sort of working on projects day in and day out, and you feel like there's something you're not quite able to achieve, and you're you're figuring out what's getting in the way. And sometimes what's getting in the way is, you know, I I can't hear well enough in my room, or I, or my speakers aren't good enough. Or it could be, well, actually, you know, if I had like a NiV 1073, there's a characteristic there that I'm not getting in any of my other gear, and you can describe to yourself what that thing is, then it justifies buying a 1073.

Joey Stuckey 26:45

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

But I don't, you don't want, you know, you don't want to buy a 1073 just to have it. I mean, it unless unless you just don't like money. Um, or don't don't need to care about money, in which case, go for it.

Joey Stuckey 26:57

But in which case, call me up and I will take something off of you.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

That's right. How do you make how do you make a million dollars? You you start with two million and you build a recording studio.

Joey Stuckey 27:07

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Or or you know, I you know, I I've also I've also you know uh I I'll sell my plasma for a microphone if I have to. Uh the um I I'm being sort of facetious, but I do, I do think you you have such wonderful points. I want to ask you um uh a question. And you know, the goal of this podcast is to celebrate the amazing people that I know and their achievements and how cool they are and tell them so to their face. Uh but also, you know, through our conversation to reveal uh insights and inspiration to people that are in the business either at the beginning or at any level, because uh just talking to other people is just such an uh interesting and wonderful use of time. And and just by being the unique person you are, you're gonna have ideas I hadn't thought of. But one of the things that I want to share and ask you in particular, because I really value your ears a lot, uh, and and just just your thoughtfulness, you know, when when you're getting started, and you just mentioned this with speakers and stuff, you know, what do you think is the essential component for someone to be able to make a record, you know, on a low budget when they're just getting started and just just their entree into the field? I mean, do you think headphones are okay to use uh exclusively, or do you think they need to have speakers? I mean, they you know they can't afford to have an acoustical design room, probably. You know, what do you what is your basic gorilla kit that you would you would say you need?

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Everything is okay. Yeah. I mean it has to be, right? I mean, and there's there there is no I mean you you you don't want to you probably don't want to do all your work on noise canceling headphones with the noise canceling turned on, and you you you know, you don't want to do your work on laptop speakers and and and it's not and it's simply because there's a lot of information that you will not hear. And what's problematic about that is that every time you're working and practicing and trying to make something better, you're training your brain. And if your brain isn't getting all the information so that you can make good decisions about how to get the low end right, or how to, you know, whether or not to compress, or is the vocal loud enough, or whatever, um, then it leads you to make wrong decisions and you can't get better. So I mean the the baseline criteria is giving your brain access to as much of the information in good proportion as possible. So, you know, at the very least, you know, if somebody said, What do I need to get started? I would say a laptop, you know, some kind of DAW. There's probably 10 plugins that I would recommend, and a pair of headphones that lets you hear 20 to 20, that's open-backed, that will image pretty well. It's probably gonna sit you back 300 bucks. Um that's that's kind of the beginning of it. I like that. I like that. There there are um and and you have to recognize there are gonna be certain challenges. There are gonna be certain things that you like listening to headphones and speakers is different if only in a in the physical experience of sound. Like the the sound that comes out of speakers hits your whole body. The low end and the kick drum is gonna, you're gonna feel that in your chest. You don't get that when you're listening through headphones. So you have to learn how to sort of adapt the the thing that you're hearing to the experience of what happens when I the sound does get played coming out of speakers. Um but you know, we are our brains are amazingly adaptable, and we can develop strategies and understanding to help us overcome whatever shortcomings there are in the things that we're learning with. And going back to what I said earlier, at some point, you know, if you feel like, okay, I just can't hear the low end well enough, I've now been working for three years, I've got clients, and I can afford to spend the extra, you know, five grand on a pair of good speakers, that's when you make that change. That's when you do it.

Joey Stuckey 31:15

Do you like the modeling technology on headphones that that simulate different monitors? Or what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 31:22

Yeah, I'm a I'm a bit of a purist about this. Um I I think it's an interesting technology, but every time I listen through the technology, I feel like I also hear the color of the of the convolution. Right. That's that makes sense. That's and so I I mean I've played with them, but I I I I would rather simply learn my playback system and and move on from there.

Joey Stuckey 31:51

Yeah, I I feel the same way, but but again, I as I say, I I sort of uh I sort of think of you as the standard repository of all knowledge and wisdom. So I wanted to Oh geez. No pressure. Uh so all right, let me move on to the big question that I've been saving for you. I'm I'm I'm saving this up. Oh, okay. I'm saving this up. I'm excited. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, so here we go. So uh I really want your thoughts on artificial intelligence. And I have seen that uh you consulted with Suno, uh, I think that's in your bio somewhere. There's there's a lot of people feel uh frustrated with that, with that platform. And then also, you know, I know you're doing things at Berkeley and and and just organized a whole uh you know conference, the Berkeley on site, had a large AI component. Uh so I really wanted to hear your thoughts on it and and get just get a really good feel for for what you think it should do, it shouldn't do, it is doing, you know, what you know it's it's it's the newest disruptor in our industry. So I I really wanted your take on it. I was I was just so excited to get you so I could really hear you're one of the few people I think can can really put some perspective on this.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Oh, okay. Yeah, there's a lot to say here. Um I guess the first thing, just to sort of clear things up, so Berkeley on site was the Berkeley Online thing. We just put on an AI music summit that was separate from that. Um, useful on all the that's okay, just to just for clarity, um, for accuracy. I've also been, you know, as education director of Isotope fairly early on, like going back 13 years, we were starting to think about how machine learning was going to develop and how it may or may not be useful to people uh in their workflows. Uh and it turned into features in Neutron and Ozone and RX. Um also uh consultant for SoftTube, um an advisor for Moises and an advisor for Suno. Um and so my uh my what motivates me to even do this work in the first place is the following. First of all, when new technology comes along, kind of going back to the temptation story or the the high school story, it's like how is how could this be useful? How is this interesting? How could it be provide sort of new creative expressions and possibilities, like give us new strategies for getting the sounds that we want? Um what's exciting about this and what's problematic about this? Um I remember the first time I used a multi-band compressor, I used the heck out of it because I thought it was going to help me win the loudness wars, and I discovered all the problem, all the problems with it. Um and so um that's the other thing that motivates me is I feel like for for anybody who's an expert in using in mixing or in mastering or recording and understands music, there's a need for the knowledge and the perspective that is held there to be offered back to the developer community. Because you may be a brilliant data scientist, or you may be a brilliant DSP engineer or a brilliant UX designer, but unless you have the subject matter expertise, you're not going to be able to build something that is truly useful to creative musicians. And you also may not understand what it means for something to be good or not good, you know, sort of qualitatively. And so I feel like my role in any of these instances has been to represent the subject matter expertise and what I think musicians need, and hopefully what musicians care about, and to be a little bit subversive and agitate and push back where pushing back is is necessary. So that's that's how I sort of that that's how I see the my role and my relationship with um audio technology and its impact on on music, and this certainly describes kind of where I am now in my relationship with AI. Um and first of all, saying AI out loud is kind of crazy because AI doesn't mean anything, it means many things. Um it doesn't just mean one thing. Right. Um so you know, if you if you look at the assistive versions of AI, you know, the metering tools or the things that you'll find in some of those isotope tools, um, there's almost no downside to them. You can choose to use them or not, but um they they might help you understand something better if you're just starting out, and they might help you do achieve your work faster if you're experienced. Um stem splitting, which is something that, you know, RX was one of the first commercial products that used that. Um there are now like a zillion stem splitters, and at first we thought, gee, this is nuts. Why would we want to unmix something that somebody mixed? Well, it turns out there are a lot of reasons and a lot of applications. Um, and they they range all the way from safety applications all the way to remixing things to making new versions. I I restored a record recently for um for an artist that where stem splitting was an essential part of the workflow. So that was it was like a no-lose situation. It just helped me do something better than I could have done it before. Um so the the sort of the generative AI thing, which is uh is I think where things get complicated, um, is a a more difficult technology to deal with for a bunch of reasons. There's the ethical and legal um aspects of it, um, which are not at all clear or settled. Um I think that our community is postillating around wanting there to be the ability to opt in or not. I mean, in the same way that like when you when you install your operating system on your Apple phone, right, it gives you the option to opt in or opt out of the terms of service. Like, do you want to make all of your photos available to them in their training data? The fact of the matter is most people probably don't even think about it. They just click the accept because they want to use their phone and they want to use their photos, right? But musicians care differently about their music in data sets than most of us care about pictures of our grandparents and our photos. Um and so people want to have the ability to opt in or opt out to whether their their music is included in the training set.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

The other thing is attribution. And this is hard because it it's not easy to say exactly how much you know the the you know talking head song is showing up in the output of a model when it's generating something that's sort of talking talking heads-ish, but it also sounds a little bit like Nick Drake and it sounds a little bit like Eminem, you know, or whatever. Um and but this is these are the things that people want, it seems. Um and so where we end up with that, whether it's from a legal framework or whether it's in product development to sort of in in service to the desires of musicians remains to be seen. Um and then there's the will AI take our jobs part of this. And um, the fact of the matter is, I think anytime we have a new technology, it has impact on workflows and incomes. I mean, MIDI replaced uh some pit orchestras and string sections, right? Because you could have like your samples playing with a MIDI controller and then a couple of live strings to sort of fill it out as opposed to a full string section. Player pianos replaced cafe orchestras 120 years ago. Um now, you know, AI you know is already starting to replace some of the compositions for commercial music and like short form video. In fact, we just published a bit of research um at Berkeley that was um looking at music in service of short form video for mostly for social, um, and we discovered that at least a third uh in a third of the instances people were using generative music to underscore their short form videos. Um that wasn't true two years ago, right? So it is having an impact, inevitably, and it will have an impact. And and we, you know, you can put your your hands over your ears and and want it want it to go away, but that that's not gonna happen. Um do are we happy about it? I don't know, probably not. Um, you know, the people who make their living from doing that kind of work probably need to think about instead of being the composer, being the person who actually helps people choose the right song, because that's where their expertise is is as a curator, as opposed to the creator. Um, you know, there there are ways that I think people can adapt to this phenomenon, but it it it has an impact, is what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

And then then the other the other piece in this, which I think is um, you know, you can take a little comfort, but it is also kind of a bummer, is that the the quality of the signal that comes out of generative AI systems is not full resolution. It does not sound as good as human-made music or the best human-made music. You know, so the output of a, you know, 11 Labs or Moises or Suno or what have you, it may be musically competent and technically proficient, but qualitatively it doesn't have depth, it doesn't have the same frequency response, it doesn't have the same resolution. And I can tell the difference between a human-made track and a generative AI track 100 times out of 100. Um and so it it's a bummer because uh you know, ultimately if people accept some like if audiences are getting poorer sound, it feels like a step back. Right. Um and it doesn't, it doesn't really sort of help reinforce goodness and excellence. Um but there's a flip side of that, which is you know, you can actually kind of tell. Like if you're if you're listening to it, it's a little bit of a bummer. And if you want something to sound truly beautiful, you probably need to find like great human-made music because AI music is is not that at the moment. And it it may be a while before we fully get there. But music is very expensive to train on. It requires lots and lots and lots of comp compute cycles, much more than than still images, for instance, or even video frames. With video frames, you got you know 29.97 and however many pixels that you have. Um with audio, it's 44,100 samples per second, multiply that times, you know, even just 16 bits, 44.1, that's 1.4 megahertz of information um or megabits, I'm sorry. Um and so a lot of the training data is dumbed down a little bit, um, only trained up to 15k, and you only get about 10 bits of resolution. And it sounds like it. You know, it sounds like uh like a uh mini disk or something like that, maybe not even that good. So um I don't know. Said a bunch of things about it. Feel free to ask me, you know, any s qu sort of follow-up questions about any specifics around any of these topics, but um those are just some thoughts from me about it.

Joey Stuckey 44:11

Yeah, so I mean I I I think you've made some excellent points. Um and I I you know I I will say that I also can tell the difference. Um you know, that being said, uh some of it's pretty remarkable. Um it sure is.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

It's getting so much better.

Joey Stuckey 44:27

Yeah, yeah. I mean, but I but you're right. I mean, there is a difference currently. And I I wonder it, I I think, you know, I think from a philosophical standpoint, you know, the real sort of thing that has uh irritated people is that, you know, I I mean, you I'm glad you brought the player piano role. And, you know, let's not forget the phonograph record that everybody said the sky is following, people will never go to see live music again because they can play this thing at home. And you know, I mean, so there is that history of our there's always new technology is always disruptive. So in that sense, you know, the this is sort of the only thing we know for sure is that change is inevitable. So that's the that's that's one way of looking at it. And I certainly you know have that perspective. Um, I have seen some interesting things. Um you know, one of the interesting things in my little town, uh, we have a a record store that sells vinyl. Uh and and they have doubled in size in their location in the last four or five years. And one of the things that I've been hearing from some of the younger folks is that they have begun to be a a little weary of paying license fees and not really owning anything. And so, you know, there's that because but obviously, you know, when we first had the idea of streaming, you're like, oh my God, I have every song in the world in my pocket. You know, and and so there was so I I wonder if AI is gonna have a little bit of that. Like once the shiny wear. Oh, it already is.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

It already is. No, I think I think people I mean, and it's again, it's not it's not zero sum. Yeah, right? It's not like it's either AI or human-made music. It's not like it's streaming or you own a physical object. It's both. Yeah. But it it does, but one sort of highlights the other, right? So the AI phenomenon makes clearer human-made creative activity.

unknown 46:30

Right?

Joey Stuckey 46:31

That's a great way of thinking about it. I like that. I like that. I I think the big thing, um, you know, when we talk about Suno, because they're, you know, they're they're one of the people that get beat up on a lot. Um, I I think the big thing there was, and I'm paraphrasing because I can't remember the exact language, but essentially, you know, the idea that learning a musical instrument is too hard, nobody wants to do that, which is kind of something the CEO sort of postulated on his website somewhere. Uh, you know, that's made a lot of people upset.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

Yeah, I mean, I totally it was um I think that was a really poorly voiced uh sentiment. I think you know w what he ultimately wanted to be pointing to is the notion of making music making more accessible. Yeah. Um and the thing that he said reflect uh reflected, I think, a lack of understanding. Or maybe yeah, and I'll I'll just sort of let that stand. I I think part of the joy is in the frustration, it is in the journey. Yes. I mean, people want to get better. I think this is one of the reasons why I've never been too concerned about AI replacing creativity, is that the there's human joy in the pursuit of getting better and being creative and realizing something on your own, whether it's you know, hand turning a piece of wooden furniture and getting really good at that, or painting paintings, or making music, and you you keep practicing to improve, and it's frustrating as hell sometimes. Yeah. And that's why we do it.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

I mean, it's not all of why we do it. We do it because, you know, we want to create something that we enjoy, and maybe we want to sell one at a flea market or whatever, you know. But you know what I mean? So um I think that this that statement by Mikey Shulman um kind of missed the boat. Um and and yes, it it's he has trouble sort of running away from that statement. Um, you know, although if you listen to recent interviews, I think he's made clearer sort of what the point was that he wants to make. Um but I I do think I do think it's a problem. I don't think it was helpful, um, not just to Suno, but in general, in general, in the context of musicians feeling like they have allies in the developers that are making these new systems.

unknown 49:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

I mean, I think that's really and that's uh that's a tough one, but I think it's really important. So again, this is why this is why I want to be involved, because I want to keep pushing back and saying, look, you know, these are this is the community, these are the people who are creating culture, you know, and um and we need to be paying attention to what's important here about that.

Joey Stuckey 49:29

I love it. I love it. Well, I I I know you had an hour to give me today. We're running, we're running up on that uh time. And uh what I want to just do in in this instance is just ask you uh if there's anything you want to share that we haven't covered, or anything uh we try to keep these podcasts evergreen, so we don't really do too many things that are uh time sensitive. But is there anything you want to share that you're doing, or anything you want people to know about that we hadn't talked about?

SPEAKER_01 49:55

Um I should have anticipated this question, so I'd have something in my hip pocket to give you. But I mean, apart from the fact that I, you know, I appreciate having the chance to to hang with you a little bit here, Joey. And oh my god, a privilege. No, it's great. And and and maybe I'm gonna extend an invitation on behalf of you and me. Like if people out there have follow-up questions, they know how to get a hold of us. So they do. Yeah, please do that. My name's on all the bathroom walls. You just go look there.

SPEAKER_00 50:29

Um, yeah, I guess what would I want to say?

SPEAKER_01 50:38

You know, I I I think I feel a little bit um I've I've had like an amazing um career, and a lot of it's been really hard. I mean, you know, I I now feel like I'm sitting in a place where, you know, if you sort of look at the position I'm sitting, you'd say, I've been successful, but that was never that was not really ever a given. Um and I don't really feel that. I sort of feel like I'm already sort of looking at the next thing. Um and I'm saying that out loud both to sort of try to, I mean, I want to be approachable. It's not like I've sort of magically disappeared where I am. It's been a journey, and other people are, you know, if you're just starting out, you're gonna have your own journey and you will get to where you get to. I'm trying to sort of encourage people by saying that out loud.

Joey Stuckey 51:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:37

Um, but um, but I also, you know, I just want to recognize that, you know, when I say things out loud, I'm I'm I'm hyper aware of the fact that I don't have as much as at stake as somebody who's 22 or 23. Um, and so anything I can do to be encouraging of the next generation and the the people who are going to be creating culture going forward, I want to do so, whether it's being accessible, answering questions, representing their concerns, representing the crowd that's like no AI, um, and trying to understand what all the concerns are. Like I just feel like that's that's I have a sense of responsibility to all that. So I don't know why I'm saying all this out loud, but um but you asked for it.

Joey Stuckey 52:23

No, well, I I listen, I I I feel very sympathetic about this. Uh I mean I you know, the the the fact is everybody's journey is different, and we're not all gonna be a Dell and sell out 80,000 seat arenas, and that's just you know, but but it's the work. If you love the work, then this is this is a space for you. And uh and and and the work and the love of it and the joy of meeting other people that feel the same way you do will insulate you from some of the nonsense that you have to put up with to be in this business. You know, it's like that's that's kind of the shield, and people say, How have you been in the business so long? And and my glib answer is I'm too dumb to quit. But the real answer, the real answer is this is what makes my spirit work. This is what uh informs my soul. This is this is an essential part of who I am, and so I I have to do it. It's not really a choice, it's it's I have to do it or I'm not completely me. And you know, as a brain tumor survivor and a blind guy, and you know, there are a lot of challenges I I conquer every day. So I go to an entrepreneur.

SPEAKER_01 53:28

I mean, you have you have made a life, and I love it.

Joey Stuckey 53:32

I wouldn't do anything else. And man, I get to know people like you, man. How cool is that? I mean likewise, likewise. I I appreciate you so much. And um, you know, uh I'm hoping that you will be in Nashville in October.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

Um, I will not only will I be there, uh, but I am going to be uh curating the AI track for awesome.

Joey Stuckey 53:53

I will I'll be there and listen, I'm gonna be the the the jackass in the back of the room going, no, I know I'm kidding. I'll just hold up a sign that goes boo. Uh but but I don't really mean that because I think AI has a place and we'll we'll end our conversation here. But we're just gonna learn about it. We're just gonna learn about it. I think it has a well, I'm excited for the fact that I've been advocating for it for about the past seven or eight years to be in the accessibility space um and and help to actually you know take the place of the screen reader, which is very clunky and and and very easy to trap into non-functionality. Uh and and you know, if if AI can give me uh virtual eyeballs, let's do this. I mean so Jonathan, thank you, my friend. I will see you soon. And and I just appreciate your time and talent and spirit. And of course, you can find all kinds of interesting guests on the podcast anytime you want to. And uh it's uh they hang out where your podcasts usually hang out uh because they like to group together. But if that's too onerous, you can always just go to the handy URL, www.stuckonsound.com.