Joey Stuckey 0:00

Welcome to Stuck on Sound. And we have a dear friend of mine that I haven't talked to for so long. And, you know, it's really cool to have a podcast that gives you an excuse to call people you hadn't talked to for a while. Tim Duffy is here from Music Maker. And I just wanted to just welcome you to the show, my friend. It's so good to hear your voice.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Yeah, it was such a welcome uh email because, you know, I just remember, you know, real musos real meet in real places. We met at what Adam's Lounge. It's like the one of the greatest, you know, legendary uh juke joints of Georgia, of great Georgia, there were you know, the Almond Brothers wood shedded, and Sam and Dave played, and BB King everywhere. And you there was a blind gentleman, I think Cootie Stark, a old blind blues man, and you came down with your mom and dad and sat and listened to the show, and and it was not many people there, but it's just one of those special nights I'll never forget. You know, they this one of these weird juke trunks with a star on the stage and janky blind. Absolutely.

Joey Stuckey 1:01

Well, you gotta you gotta have the phone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

And the people, all the people who were there were the people like Chank Middleton was there, you know, Greg Almond's road guy. You know, I can make a whole list. Everyone in the audience was somebody who was a complete Georgia music legend, you know. It was incredible.

Joey Stuckey 1:19

Yeah, yeah. I mean, he and I I miss Chaink. Um he um I'll tell you that you may not remember this because uh we met in the 90s. Um that's that's when the dinosaurs roamed. And uh, but but I actually was a recording engineer for one of the SMA Brooks records you did.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Oh, yes, I remember that.

Joey Stuckey 1:39

Yeah, yeah. And and that was a actually a fantastic experience. We had so much fun, and and she was she was such a delight to work with and just uh so authentic. And uh and that's actually a perfect segue for me to talk about you and what you do because authenticity, I think, is a a a word, a mantle, if you will, that really belongs with you. And um, you know, I'm gonna let you explain your organization, but I mean it's essentially what you have done is gone and preserved musical heritage. You've gone and given lifelong musicians an opportunity to continue their craft uh and to continue to bring in a living. And and it's just absolutely incredible. So I I'll let you kind of take take the the wheel a second and just tell everybody you know what you do and why you do it.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Okay, so Music Maker Foundation is a nonprofit organization dedicated to uh helping the unsung heroes of southern musical traditions. And um, you know, um, and these are the greatest folks you never heard of, but you know, most people don't realize the the blues and the gospel and the jazz was created. All the music that we drink from, the great river music of America comes from the South, the stuff that's interesting. And it was created by working class musicians, you know, that played on Friday night and Saturday and Sunday. Weren't really professional artists, or any of these were slaves in the field, or, you know, uh, you know, in the beginning days, field haulers, and then working class people and working whites in in uh sock factories getting together and playing picnics. And so that music never dies and culture doesn't die. And in uh poor neighborhoods and the places around the South, that music tradition still is thriving. And so we identify these people and we have these three different programs. We have an end education program that's ensure that American roots music is always accessible to current and future generations. And we write books and we record artists, we create exhibitions, and we have an archive of document to document this for future generations. And then a lot of these artists are not in the best of shape and they're in sustenance. We have a sustenance program. The artists that are in our programs and our recording programs, we don't have money to cure poverty in America. But for the guys we help, say an average income is between you know $9,000 and $12,000 a year. So if you're in a family home and your air conditioning breaks, we can help with that. Or we uh you need a car repair, we can help with that. Or a lot of it is the your the cost of prescription medicine when you're pulling in eight to twelve hundred dollars a month and paying for your rent and car and food, you don't have the $300 to pay for a prescription medicine. And sadly to say, food insecurity is a big issue. A lot of people have to skip meals, you know, because they do not have enough food to make it through the month. So that monthly nut really is uh something we love that we do. And then we have a performance program that to help our artists build their careers through income and and help them get their skills through touring. We book shows for them and provide tour management and professional development. You know, over to date, we've issued over 300 CDs. Uh, we've done tens of well, almost 10,000 performances. Um we've helped over about 700 artists. We've had 55 museum exhibitions, we've toured 32 countries. Uh, we've done about uh 18,000 grants to individual artists. So we're small, niche, but we um we're doing it, you know, and and there's a lot of not a now with the change change in record landscape. There's sadly to say, there's not a lot of record companies that document this culture, like folk, you know, um Arhuly or um there's just not many. It's hard to be an independent record company when music is uh expected to be free. And so how does there's no real business model like when I to make the recording self-sustaining? Um so that's why I think the nonprofit model is uh a great way. I'm glad we chose that way and that path that we can continue. Um, we have a studio, we we have a we're based in Hillsborough, North Carolina. That's where our offices are, about a hundred miles east of us in eastern Carolina. There's a small town called Fountain in a very rural part of North Carolina, a town of 300. We have three um storefronts. One's a photo studio, one's a recording studio. One's an artist studio where a guy named Freeman Vines brought us down there, who is a guitar maker, um contemporary artist we worked with. But we have a recording studio that we do about six projects a year, and it's like um in um in other projects locally where it's people can come and um it's like a uh you know a retreat kind of area where people can just think about their music and grow. And um, we just finished there's my wonderful producer friend Jimbo Mathis, uh just helped me with some um projects and um much there, and so you know the music keeps going, and um, and I you know I can talk and on and on just even now. Yeah, you know, we'll try to make the unseen scene, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Joey Stuckey 7:37

No, I I I love that. I mean, I have a I have a question for you. So you're you're documenting, you're preserving. Um is is there is there a museum space for you guys where people can come and see some of this stuff? Or is it online? Or what's the yeah?

SPEAKER_01 7:52

Most of the music we have uh is to go to musicmaker.org. We have a very robust, robust website. Um, you know, Bandcamp is one of the few um services you can just go to Music Maker Recordings and you can see uh all these recordings that you're listed on there. We have a YouTube channel. Um you know, Fountain, maybe we have a museum of like over 150 of Freeman's guitars that are, you know, works of art that are hanging there. But um we have a Fountain Fest coming October 17th in Fountain, where it's a small little event. Our first years we'll have tours of the facility. And then we still do ongoing work. Um, you know, we we're working now. Um always we have lots of recording projects on the right way. We just finished one, which I'm very excited about, is the Parchman Band from Parchment Penitentiary in Mississippi, one of the most infamous uh penal incarceration um places. You know, just the worst of our history of incarceration and um, you know, slavery without another name and another name for years and years, and it fell into complete anarchy. And a brilliant uh warden and superintendent of prisons came in and um changed the whole culture in the last four years and revived the band that was dormant for 30 years, and they the band's uh mission is to um play music for the other prisoners in the system and recently going into the public. But imagine there where they're playing for 30 years, they denied music from the inmates, so they had no band going around playing, and they'll go around playing for people, and they say whole rows of people will break out crying uncontrollably, and they'll ask afterwards what happens. So, man, I've been here 20 years, I haven't heard a band play. So um the the new warden uh philosophy is the sentence is the punishment. You don't have to uh punish people further. I can't even think of as a musician and arts guy to being denied music in my life would be just horrible. So um they made a slamming record that were uh could be released next February and uh trying to help with that music program and set up a I sent them uh a whole fleet of recording studio equipment, about $15,000 worth of gear to set up a studio there, and so they can learn to record themselves and um set up a program. Now I have other wardens from all the other Mississippi penetrators who want me to record their bands and look into music to as a way to, you know, um, you know, for for rehabilitation and being human. So those are the kind of projects that you know I have a sense for and my ear to the ground. And I see something's happening, I try to lend my support and my agency uh to let people know. And that's what Music Maker is a lot for a lot of these guys, like like S. May Brooks that you mentioned, or Cootie Stark. These are guys and musicians or gospel women that played in their church and little area of um uh where was it, um Perry, Georgia, or Cootie Stark. Or Warner Robins, I'm not sure. Yeah, North Carolina, and they don't have much outreach outside of their neighborhoods, but and then we make a big point of all the artists that we we we try to get national attention for people, but the real start is how to make them important in their community. And so when in someone like these artists, like these gospel groups or these small groups, and we take them to a show in New York or an outsider puts a record to them, that's something that's like an old worn shoe that's not that special becomes very special. And the people in their neighborhood and their family look at them differently, and you never forget the kids because the kids are always watching. And um, if we talk to these old timers I know, they're playing obscure music. When I talk to them how they learned, they learned from their old uncles and old grandmas, and they were watching as kids because they thought other kids were playing ball or other guys doing um other kinds of music. But there's always some kid that wants to know what the root is and carry the tradition is because that's what culture is. Culture does not die, it transforms and moves, but that's why the South, especially the South, is such a rich musical gumbo that just keeps evolving and growing and it is beautiful and doesn't always happen in where it's marketed, it happens in small communities. And in my opinion, it's more entertaining and more real. I'd rather do that than spend $500 to go to a stadium show and the plus parking and stuff. I'd rather be at Adam's Lounge or some little someone's little church or someone's little room hearing something music. That's just how I am. I I love this uh true authentic nature of the human spirit at its rawest form. That's what gets me.

Joey Stuckey 13:14

Absolutely preach. I uh listen, let me let me say, so you know, I I I'm with you on this, and um uh I think one of the things that I like uh about the recordings that you have produced with with the foundation uh is that that that energy, that rawness, that that that authenticity. And now you started recording uh when you were around 16. And yeah, tell me tell me about how that started for you.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

Oh my father got me a boom box, and I used to go around recording Brownie, McGee, and Sonny Terry, and they used to come up to my home in New Haven, and then I was down in Warren Wilson College in 1981 in western North Carolina, and I was on the Appalachian music crew, and I would, you know, this great crew that went around and documented people, and there's these great old timers, a guy named Walt Davis, who started his music career in 1915, and by 1930, he uh had recorded you know the first uh hillbilly version of Corinne Karina, which made it became a national hit and played everywhere. And so I started then from there I spent almost four years in Kenya, East Africa, recording Swahili Talab music, and I came back and got a master's degree in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, and Methodist blues music, uh, blues musicians, and started recording them. And and I'm basically an old field recorder, you know, um, just you know, put two mics or one mic in front of somebody, and the trick of that style it's it's a it's a great style um recording. Uh you know, I got in bed with a guy named Mark Levinson, who's a great audio pioneer who gave me these incredible mics and preamps. You know, this is a good guy designed uh sound for Lexus cars, and it's a great hi-fi guy. But yeah, um, that was the base of my support. And um in um, but you just have to find great artists because there's no overdubbing, it's just you know but it's a great way for me because I had no money because I didn't have money to mix or engineer. So you just find the great artist, put up some things, play record, dub it together, you have a record. That's why I put out so many records. As of late now, we have a recording studio and people laid parts and do all that stuff, and we're doing that was my next question, yeah. Yeah, and we we do that work, but it it's much more expensive and it's much more time consuming. But I love that kind of work. Uh I just did a a record of after 17 records of that, we just did an old-time mountain musician from Mount Erie, North Carolina, and and um put a couple ribbon microphones up there and got that old uh vanguard sound and it was nice, it was fun, it was just done. But then the next group, so that's that's where I have to start. Now we're at the stage where I can hire engineers and producers to do that kind of stuff, and um and uh it's just because the music changes it's it's hard to find. I'd sad to say, it's hard to find those old blues guys and uh in self-realized artists that are just you know this are self-contained where you just walk up to them and it's all there. But yeah, I'm always on the search. I'm never gonna say it's not there, but it's just you have to keep looking. Like, you know, um, and any really great artist, you know, can do that. I'm sure you know Bob Dylan started just him and a guitar playing on the streets. Absolutely, absolutely, yeah. Ray Charles, I've I would give my left finger to hear Ray Charles sit down on a piano and just oh man.

Joey Stuckey 16:55

I I I I feel the same way. I mean, you know, it it's interesting because um, you know, I I I chose to get in the studio business, which is uh very expensive. Uh a lot of overhead, a lot of overhead. And uh, you know, but uh it's what uh it's what informs my spirits that you know the work is you know sufficient as long as I can you know have my clothes and stuff. Yeah, go leaving the house and clothes is won't win. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

So but studios closing right and left.

Joey Stuckey 17:28

Oh my gosh. I'm too dumb to quit, brother. I'm just too dumb to quit. I just won't I refuse. So it's it's you know, and I just I just bought a new SSL console. So I mean that's the price of a small house. I mean, it's just hysterical. But but but um but the thing is uh what I was gonna say is like you know, um I have done uh some of those records with one mic or two mics, and and you know, and and and and the joy some of the bluegrass guys are real uh real insistent that they only want one microphone. Yeah. And and and so you, you know, what you do is you like move people around the room until you got a balance. I mean, there's that bandwidth in the corner in the next room. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, you know, and there's some joy to that. There's you know, I mean, we we've done things, uh I mean, by and large, I record everything in my studio because it's just stupid not to, but you know, I I was on tour in Memphis and uh Sun Studio was something you could rent for three hours in the evening, and uh, you know, everybody's in the same room with a handful of mics. They got like an eight-channel board, and and all the you know, the drum mic, the drums are bleeding into the guitar mic, the guitar mic's bleeding into the vocal mic. And you know, it it it was just a joy to do, and there was no editing or punching in or anything. It was what it was. You had to decide if it was good or not. Yeah, yeah. There was no there was no kicking the can down the road to decide later if you liked it. You had to make the decision right there. Yeah, I think there's some joy in that. So, I mean, when you when you how I guess my question is the the biggest question, um, like how do you find people that qualify for your program? Like, how does that work?

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Well, you know, it started in 1994 with uh well earlier, so I started a group of musicians out of Winston-Salem, and it was an amazing group, um, Guitar Gabriel and and Mr. Q, and it was a group. And then it they'll with the musicians always, in my case, always led me to another musician. It's usually handoff, you know, and then and then um sometimes I would hear of a record in the 60s. That's what led me to Georgia, was a guy named John Lee Ziegler, and he made a record in '72 by George Mitchell. And I just drove back before the internet was so good and phone. I just drove to um Perry, Georgia, and started asking people where John Lee Ziegler was. And someone at the gas station told me, and I went there and found one. I I don't do as much as that anymore, but um, even Freeman Vine, someone told me about an eccentric guitar maker. I was like, oh, he probably doesn't know what he's looking at. So I drove down and met him and turned out you know to be a genius. We did a great book, and he introduced me to his sisters who had a gospel group since 1958. Um I'm in Eastern Carolina, and now I find you know that's probably the beginnings of all gospel music, is where people came on the eastern seaboard where all the the you know the enslaved people were here and got a day called Sunday, and and these people and these families have been uh living in that same physical area since 1670, and so probably 400 years of oral tradition in one area by one set of families. That's remarkable. That's amazing. So I and there's literally you know 1,500 groups, you know, that and and talk about a closed tradition, they just play on Saturdays and Wednesdays and don't even try to play in public, and the best harmony music you ever heard in my life. It's unbelievable. So you fall into that, and then you know, go down to Clarksdale Blues Festival and meet somebody, and you meet somebody, and so it just and then some I see a uh post of the parchment band online, and it's like, oh my god, these guys are unbelievable. And I write the warden of the prison. I can we come in and they say yes, and I find and find myself I'm in this remarkable place of spiritual you know redemption where these guys they have this program where these guys um in prison are finding spiritual redemption in the crucible of uh uh of incarceration and writing about it. It's like, oh my god, what's going on here? We have to get this record out. So um, so you know, that's just me. I'm a I have good radar, you know, um and I have this particular taste in music, and I, you know, um, and I always looking, I always have a heart for the most disintrans. franchise um and the the you know the person with the least opportunity you know absolutely you know the le you know one with you know I met a young person I was about to sign and about to do some stuff not sign but help out and yeah and then then I find that her father's a a judge and her mom's a lawyer and it's like oh my god I think why don't you just I'll take some wonderful pictures of you and uh and help you give you an idea and why you just do uh uh one of those go funding campaigns and you don't need me and she's oh okay three weeks later she raised $20,000 is off doing it as a career great you know but I'm at I knew she was great and just needed some advice so I'm happy to give advice you know but if I'm pulling out our donors dollars I'm really looking to help the people that everyone's overlooked and you know in a lot of the families when you in in these impoverished communities and uh it's not just they're poor there no one in the family has any money you know there's right you know poverty in America it's very much hidden but there's you know you go to these places there's this this this poor and no one has in they don't have a a uh a love doctor in the family or a lawyer in the family or everyone is just you know um struggling so um right you know as a little money can go a long way and and then in the main thing when you meet these artists very few ever asked for money they they just want a gig they just want an opportunity to play and then I get that an opportunity to have their picture taken after uh to be seen um that that is the number one request I get you know from people they're not looking for a handout they're looking for a hand up you know um absolutely yeah that's and that's that's kind of a you know a criteria we have and um we're looking at those because we we look at these people when we take an artist on it's just like um they're partners you know they've got a partner who they are and how they're represented and we talk there's a lot of talking going on because we you know there's you know you have it's kind of like a and then the one thing you find is um you have all these disparate characters these eccentric geniuses per se all around that no one really understands the the community then you put them on a package show together and then they don't feel all alone and then they get the newsletter and they think oh there's other people like me carrying these old things I I yeah I've been doing this for 30 years. I wasn't wasting my time because Little Lily Farmer in Duck Hill Mississippi is doing it too and and sometimes like even Little Lily Farmer you know I got him a record deal now he no one knew of Little Lily Farmer five years ago or before I did that record um Five Possum or whatever that label was. And then I said why he wanted he said he wanted help with a juke joint and so we gave him materials and some money and then pretty soon everyone's bringing materials for a juke next bumpy head eight years he has a juke joint and a little farmer festival and you know and I check in with him but he's just doing fine you know he's just fantastic.

Joey Stuckey 25:21

He just needed someone from the outside sometimes to go inside and say hey you're great and then the community says oh wow he is great we need to help him you know I love this because you know it is true that that that sometimes the communities don't realize the treasures they have I mean that that is really true.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Uh I I there are people I know uh and I and I just go if you only realized like how good this guy is if you know like you know I mean I just I just you know I'm I'm in awe and I'm like man this is like world class music I keep going back do you still have a home in Macon around there I do yeah I'm still in Macon that's one of the holy lands of American music it's like every time I go to that mid-Georgia it's like what's going on it's like going to Muscle Souls or yeah yeah or Mississippi is like this little area it's like Otis Redding came from there the Amon brothers moved from Florida and they adopted him you know everyone thinks Almer Brothers are from Georgia they're from Florida but they are Georgia says no you're ours you know yeah well they stayed with us for about a decade you know they they they were they they based their their cells here for a long time there so that they just that area is like one of those holy you know it's just one of those incredible places you know yeah I I was wondering so uh uh if somebody knew of an artist that that needed support uh do you have like a a full well you know they can email us like there's a guy low down brown with is one I think was arguably the greatest modern you know electric blues guitar players I know uh he his girlfriend sent him it was great an old school manila envelope with a little CD and a little picture and I was like okay look at this and I looked up online some gigs he played it's like oh my god this guy's great that I put in the CD that he wanted to make a record with it's like oh god this guy did on one of those little home studios and it's like this is already done he doesn't really even need a producer all the parts are here and we made an incredible record we're gonna do a second record with them so I listened to everything that's people send in you know and um in and and I you know some is great and some is not so great but that's that's how they do it. I someone just sent something in from some kid um from uh down in Memphis recently some you know next next we have a next generation program always looking for young artists that we can help and um right so um we're always going through that we're we're limited you know we have we're uh we can only do so much we can only take on so many people but um right when we do take them on it's full on it's like well and so I mean I guess I guess the website's the best way for people to kind of reach yeah they can go to the website and there'll be an info at musicmaker.org or some kind of and they can also they can also donate there as well right yeah they can donate and uh buy some stuff and figure out you know learn about our books and it's a pretty deep read if you go in there is also stuff to learn about.

Joey Stuckey 28:26

Well I here's here's the thing I wanted to to to to drill into so um you know as as you have uh said and as I have said and and we've chatted a little bit before the podcast started and you know uh we live in a very different world than the one uh of 1990 uh when when both of us kind of got the our start basically you know uh and so um I'm just wondering from you I mean you know obviously what you want is for your artist to be successful and for them to have uh resources and you know if you teach Amanda Fish uh kind of principle and and and hopefully they can continue uh you know growing and and and you know prospering and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

So with the music business being so different what what are you finding is the best way for your artist to resonate with people are you doing the CDs are you doing vinyl are you doing streaming like what's the what's the master plan that helps get people well we it's a work in progress I got to tell you you know I you know I'm not gonna stop documenting we we do a lot of stuff on Facebook we do a lot of stuff on Instagram or starting on Instagram we we have uh a program where we put out six CDs a year and it's like a you people can join a listener circle and donate $300 and uh and learn about these guys and that kind of you know for the old schoolers gets it out there. We have um we go to the Telluride Blues festival every year. We're always looking for other events but you know everything since after COVID is very different. Like I used to have a very extensive touring program in Europe but now with the demise of um record companies there are our record company partners aren't don't even exist there in France anymore so how do you to go to new markets you have to almost market yourself yeah this other layer is everyone has to market themselves. So to be a um to create a demand to go play so just to be an artist in today even for a if you have all your stuff going for you it's so different.

Joey Stuckey 30:39

You have to be a besides most artists are very introspective and and don't want to talk but now they have to have a be an internet personality to get the yeah is a lot of demands on these guys it's so I think it's one of the most trickiest times and then you'll find people that are really good on the internet and can get the little clips across but can they play an hour and a half show and entertain you know I maybe maybe not you know um so um back to what we try to do you know we are trying our best we just did a uh uh advanced series here in Carborough um we we used to do pre-COVID book about 200 shows a year now it's way down from that so um we're just trying to figure that out so during this interim we spend a lot of time with documenting and producing and um getting their pictures out there and um in the hopes people re reach out and get them more but our expectations for uh touring are much different than they were you know in you know pre-COVID and so oh yeah yeah it's amazing it's amazing how much that landscape uh changed you know live shows and uh and and it just uh you know and and the other thing um I don't know if you find this but you know I I own a studio I'm a producer I'm a recording engineer I'm an educator uh session musician and I do all those things to pay for my habit of being an artist and uh so you know being an artist is really hard and and it's it's expensive it's time consuming consuming you know and and and and when I went back to school uh I I started working towards uh an advanced degree um you know uh at Berkeley and uh I I got derailed with some health issues and then just never got back on it. But you know Berkeley uh College of Music in Boston is is an absolutely amazing uh school I'm very proud to have uh attended there I'm very proud that I had a 4.0 grade average and was on the Dean's list every semester. Uh but that being said half the stuff I learned about marketing no longer works. Yeah because the internet is changing so fast the algorithms are changing so fast how things get pushed out is changing so fast that it you know you you really need someone to stay on that like for you all the time.

SPEAKER_01 33:17

I mean it's just actually my small company we have a tech per just to keep we have a technology person just to keep us up to things and you know keeping you going and and then you know he's telling me the Google search is going to ai and doesn't lead you right to the websites anymore. So all these people have made websites like I have a website is giving harder to search now there they just we made all this stuff for you to use and now they're they're they just want control of all the data. So you know it's like oh oh I have a five year plan to make a new website will websites even be a thing people look at you know is that going yeah yeah we don't know I mean things are in a real you know ai is a real uh disruptor you know it really it's it's it's really changing what happens and these five overlords are deciding our future with no input for me so well I I'm glad you feel that way Tim because I get a little hate from people on this but I am not an AI fan.

Joey Stuckey 34:17

I you know I just uh I'm a humanist and uh I I think AI has its place as an assistive tool. And as a blind person, you know myself I I like some of the AI tech that's come out that uh uh can read things to me and and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

I I find that helpful but when it comes to uh the music business and AI being you know in the creative spaces um taking up some of the some of the oh well we can get into that it's very dark days but uh I you have to use AI but you know there's a I don't know if you know but they're creating how many like if for AI music is gonna take away all the licensing income that I used to get like the first year classic rock guys are holding on to what they have yeah and they'll be you'll see them licensed on the shows but in the second third and fourth years they you get a hit on a Super Bowl commercial or TV show well why would they need you if you have AI music you can spend $20 a month and get all you want. You know so um they're really disrupting of all the publishing business and the music business in general.

Joey Stuckey 35:28

So and I think that's something people I think I think that's something that the music fans don't really uh understand because as you as you say I mean basically these tech companies have spent the last 10 years you know sinking millions and millions of dollars into into AI you know research and development and also lobbying the government uh to leave them unregulated. Yeah so you you know so so they're uh the the sort of the realization that I've come to in part I I'm gonna ask my listeners for uh grace because they know how I feel about this, but I'm gonna say it again anyway. I feel like uh they're trying to sell us on the lie that uh with you have to have artificial intelligence as an integral part of your daily life to live with the 21st century and that the pursuit of instant gratification is what you should be focused on as opposed to like some of the records you made with two microphones and one guy who was just amazing. And and and that that that record that you made with the two microphones you know it has something that AI can't produce not that AI can't sound good but AI isn't alive. So it has nothing to tell you it has nothing to share. And I worry about I feel like you know a lot of people don't really understand the music business.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Will they train listeners to because most people aren't real artists on listening they don't really care and will they train humanity out of our brains you know like right like map quests was well when's the last time you used a paper map you why would you they never let me use a paper map you never use a paper map.

Joey Stuckey 37:04

You know honestly I will say this man folding a map is a real skill uh and I don't possess it like just I never could when I used to hold the map for somebody that could see uh and then it was time to fold it up that that was just uh that was not good. I I'm being sort of silly but now when you but but get back to this like when you disseminate your albums of your amazing artists who are as real as it gets uh and and and are singing from the depths of their soul they're playing uh they're they're channeling all the things uh good and bad and that have happened to them in their lives they're sharing their stories you know what what is are you mainly doing CDs or what's what's the what's the best circle we do CDs actually we don't have to press a lot of them now because there's this great service called Kanaki you know that we'll just print like five or twenty or 120 or I think we do 300 because we don't want a lot of stock because we have so many things and then we mount them on this um we have a little MVD distributor that puts them all those you know iTunes and all the different places right and they and people listen to there and then we talk about them on Facebook and Instagram and and that's and then the community's there.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

So it's very limited reach um but then you have something like this parchment thing when we'll post a video you know this little thing on visiting something and in 10 minutes it gets you know 10,000 views or a hundred but it's still like huge views millions of views but you know people do see it and then but that's why I think the website is always important because there's links there if you hear a glance if someone gets to the website and hears a Beverly Guitar Watkins or oh yeah any of these guys that there's a link to everything there's a bio there's a photo and that's very um makes me what I hope they don't take websites away but the only place a lot of our artists exist on the web was on on our website and there's like and they used to exist other places but I notice it's getting narrower and narrow when I look up like um any of our artists like Mike Evine Hayes or uh the you know the dedicated men of Zion it leads to our website and you can read see their picture hear their music and see them there and and there's very other few places they exist if at all besides there. So it's kind of like it's very important to have this because they they gave us a wide berth at first and and for people to find information but now it's the it seems it's tightening you know so um um I hope that we can keep just that be there you know because then we have an archive at the University of North Carolina Southern Book Life collection but you actually have to physically go to Chapel Hill and look up the stuff and sit in a cubicle but not many people get to do that. But at least it's part of yeah that's a whole that's that's a if you have any ideas how to get it out there it'd be great.

Joey Stuckey 40:10

Well you know it's I was just I was just curious because it it's you know the music business um it is I don't know that anybody truly understands it but um it's funny because um the the one thing that I like about social media uh I generally speaking I I kind of have gotten to the point where and this is not fair really but I feel like social media is kind of evil you know um but that's not really fair.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

What what the the problem if you're a 13 year old and you see where they grew up with Facebook and Instagram I have a lot of those guys that point that you can even look at it.

Joey Stuckey 40:47

Well that's exactly you know my my problem with it is this that that it is very easy to create a false veneer of professionalism and reality when it when in fact you have no idea what you're talking about and you're not legitimate. And that's a real problem. And uh it's it's a problem in in the music business uh it's a problem with medicine. My wife's an advanced practice nurse you know and we read stuff all the time it's like okay this is not true. And you know and and so just it's real hard to like even know what's real anymore. But yeah you ask AI a different question on a different day and it's two opposite answers you know that's right and you don't know where you don't really know where it's getting its information from it's kind of nebulous. So but my but my point though is is so you know that it's hard to find these you know authentic connections because really social media has sold us on the idea that it is creating connections and it is it is creating community but but that is not really what's happening like it used to be in the early days. So it's it's hard to find that that group of people that wants to hear the authentic old blues music and stuff like that. It's harder to find that to find that community. But what I will say is you know you can do uh some pretty good if you've got the time and patience you can do some research and kind of find you know find that tribe uh it takes effort but the thing I do like about social media really the only thing is that if you have a Facebook page or if you have a you know whatever whatever your poison um you can actually ask your supporters hey do you want vinyl or would you buy it if I made it uh do you want CDs? Would you buy it if I made it you know you you can get a sense of where you need to spend your survey every year and find out all that kind of stuff. It's interesting. Yeah I mean I think I think that is is useful you know and then there's then there's sort of the other part which a lot of people don't talk about uh this is the nerd part of me coming out here uh but that you know we everybody understands sort of demographic information not everybody understands psychographic information where you begin to try to understand where your brand and your fans lifestyle intersect so you know something you might discover is that oh well gee everybody that loves and I'm just making up stuff here but everybody loves Beverly Guitar Watson also loves drinking coffee. So that means that we should probably make coffee mugs with with her face on it.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

I mean you know there's there's you know there's stuff like that that that people that's really like most nonprofits are around a museum or a city park you know it's very um centrally located but ours is really a psychographic of people that like older that they're people that love culture that love old music. Right and I would even not even say they're you know particularly old blues or old time music they're culture lovers. A lot of our supporters you might not even know much about blues you know actually it's interesting but they like that they represent Represent culture and represent art. And that's fantastic. You know, that's interesting because it's not like a it's not like a blues organization.

Joey Stuckey 44:08

Like I just like right, exactly. No, it's right. You're doing you're doing more. Well, you're doing more than just blues. You're doing gospel and you're doing yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

But there's the people who support us just like the idea that we're doing it, and that's great. We need more of them. Well, I I'll tell you what I love.

Joey Stuckey 44:23

And I and and this is you know, I've been I've done TV and radio for a million years, and uh uh so I I say I have a face for radio and a posterior for television, but uh the uh and uh you know I'm blind, what do I know? Uh I just make stuff up about myself. But the uh the the thing is, you know, one of the things that I think is so interesting uh and such a powerful story is is the one uh about the prison and and you know the penitentiary and and and the redemption and what music can do. And and I I think that's such an amazing story. Like uh that should be a documentary. That should be right.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

We just finished shooting a 10-minute film, and I think the parchment thing of of you know, 40 years of doing this work, if this is the most unseen culture, and and this you have to think of a place, you know, that had bands, but for 30 years didn't have, and there was no access in there because it was such a corrupt organization and they didn't let anybody in. Now you have a guy that says yes to everybody, and everyone's in there. I mean, that is amazing. And it gives it gives me hope. It gives you hope, and then you talk to the guys that were locked up for 33 years, and guys were locked up, you know. I I'll go be started, but they're in like six by ten cells for 30 years, uh, 23 hours a day, an hour out a day in shackles. And the guy says, All right, we're gonna open the doors, give you a yard and no more shackles, and you have freedom to walk around here. And it's like, and then, oh, the water system's terrible. I'll put a whole new water system. Oh, there's no air conditioning uh or heat or bare, no sewage, let's fix that, you know. So please, that's you know, so it's hard not to say no to get to it. And then you have uh music guys, these guys who are to live this great uh moral code that are out there trying to play music for their fellow man and play for all the prisoners. And when I went down for a second time, I had four wardens come to me. When are you gonna record my guys? How can we help? I was just on the phone this morning with one, and um and you know, and he had the same thing. I'm trying to ask about an 18-year-old boy what he's in there for. He's just a great guitar player, and and someone started to tell the warden what he was in for. He's getting flacked for giving a chance to play. And he said, Look, I don't you don't have to tell me what these guys are in for. I just want to know what their um risk for what their um level is, are they you know, risk level they are, and are they escape potential? Besides that, I'm just about um uh making a good experience and and and and uh what do you call it? Uh make make a better experience so when I can change the hearts and minds of these guys so they don't come back here. Uh you know, what what they've done, if they've been sentenced. This is a wardens telling me this. I don't care what they've been sentenced for. That's the society's already made the judgment. That's not my job to punish them more. My job is to um change their hearts and minds so they don't come back here.

Joey Stuckey 47:34

That's that's it, and and this is such a powerful testament to what music can do because I I just love this story. I mean, it it's remarkable. And and to find someone, uh, and I'm not trying to paint law enforcement as uncaring, I'm not saying that I know several people in law enforcement are dear friends of mine and and and wonderful citizens, but to find someone who could be jaded and could be, well, everybody's a criminal, and you know, I they're all here, they deserve it. I mean, yeah, to find someone that that does not have that attitude and and and and believes in this idea of redemption, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 48:12

I I just think it's like when you meet them, they don't talk, it's not a bunch of religious speak, but they're live, they're living the book of Proverbs and just doing it. I love everybody. Basically, that's their thing.

Joey Stuckey 48:24

We that is we love that is my philosophy. I mean, that is me. I honestly you know, and and I love that. I think that's so cool. And that's why uh, you know, sharing the gift of music uh I take so seriously. Um, you know, it's something now when you went down uh you know to to the incarcerated prisoners, like I mean, what kind of gear did you take? Were were you doing the two like that?

SPEAKER_01 48:48

Here's the amazing thing is we went there the first time and we were gonna do uh record in the prison at their little, they have a they rebuilt the little hall in a practice room, and they got some money and it looks really good. And then we said, uh it'd be sure a lot easier if we just could go to Water Valley to dial back sound and just make this in the studio. And the warden said, Okay. So they went to the car with a guy and just drove over the guys who drove over there for two days and made directly back, and then they started doing shows in the public. He they would bring guys with shotguns the first four or five shows, not for the prisoners, just to make the public feel like they were safe. Now, when they go out, they don't have and none of that stuff. Wow, that is amazing. Because they they say people have trust issues. I trust my guys.

Joey Stuckey 49:45

Yeah, that is a good thing. And if you get trust, you have to give trust.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

I mean, what a privilege to to be part of that is is so, but there's some guys that have the green stripes or the trip. There's certain people that have more privileges can go, but there's other people that with that for things they've done, I don't know, they can't leave the grounds. And that's why it's like we need to set up a studio just right there so they can document themselves and and set up a program, you know, and set up a recording program, and you know, and and get a safe place where people can work on their songs and you know, because music is a healer, blues is a healer. I always thought, you know, um, all music is healer. If you you know, like I always the old guys say, if you can't play uh feeling bad and you can't play a guitar or drums, play the radio, and you listen to your favorite song, you know, the latest country star, a hip star, you and to buy the third song, whatever trouble you had in your heart is kind of milder, it's mellower, you know.

Joey Stuckey 50:45

It's well it's it's true. You know, I'm I'm blind because of a brain tumor, and and so I'm a brain tumor survivor, and uh uh you know that honestly, the the issues that to the brain tumor left my body, uh I don't make adrenaline and all kind of weird stuff. Uh, but it's you know, I have to manage that. That's actually harder than being blind. But the I mean, I have literally used music as pain painkillers. I mean, there there was a time that I discovered I was allergic to morphine and uh I had no pain management uh one day after a surgery, and I was very uncomfortable. And so I put on, I I got my lovely wife to grab my uh John Coltrane giant steps record and my Miles Davis kind of blue record. And I'm like, I'm like, play play these and I'll get lost in it, and I will be able to get on top of the pain. And uh and I say I because I'll start thinking and I'll start wondering and marveling and and I will get lost in the nuance, and then the pain's still there, but I'll be over it instead of under it, you know. So it's it's I'm all about it. I I mean I I I know the power. Uh and and you know, so so you know, I'll tell you what it kind of sounds like that you have. Uh, and I I want to encourage people to to contribute uh to Music Maker because uh it sounds like you almost have a bit of a Motown uh philosophy where you're you're educating the artists, you're you're kind of putting them through an education process. You're not just capturing them, but you're actually empowering them to grow and develop and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 52:24

We give them all great instruments. If they don't have good instruments, uh, you know, I'm I I hate to see someone if they want a better guitar, we just get, you know, we're sending guitars out weekly, it seems like.

Joey Stuckey 52:35

Well, I mean, so do you have like a a a program where hey, you're gonna go through a four-week training course, or how does I mean how does that work when you prepare your artists? You're recording them, but then what happens after that? Like, how does that work?

SPEAKER_01 52:46

Well, I don't know, every case is different. Some people, you know, are all self-realized. Sometimes you go in the studio and they need work on their songs and we'll work on the songs to make a grip better record. Um, sometimes we'll listen to the band and we'll bring in the producers and help them get their act together so they're you know, it's a lot of like this might work for the black church, but it's not gonna work for a white folk festival, you know, and gotcha, gotcha. Transform that show so everyone can understand that. And um, you know, like Alice Vine, she just worked with her and she just won uh folk artists of you know, uh uh state folk arts award. You know, they've you know, people have done very well with that. So um even with um the um Jimbo did with the parchment band, heard a couple of their songs and they're doing a lot of covers. Man, why don't you just write your own songs and write your own arrangements? And so um, and they did, and it's just amazing songs. So sometimes it's a little just a little nudge of encouragement, you know. It's like a lot of people come to you, they play what you think you want to hear. A lot of that is just like, let's break that down, who you are, and that's what we're interested in, and in in get those guards down so we find out who that artist is, and that's why you're so special. That's why you've been doing doing that. If that makes sense.

Joey Stuckey 54:13

Yeah, I got you. So it it's it's a custom approach to each artist, is what it's everything's custom because they're also different in so many different genres.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

And and it's very it's like a you know, kind of like a MacArthur grant for folk artists. Like we don't take on, it's not um like other organizations, like well, look look at the um music here as part of the Grammy organization. It's very focused.

Joey Stuckey 54:37

I'm very familiar with that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:39

Very focused on recovery and uh in three months of rent if you're broke. They help hundreds, if not thousands, of artists a year. They're very well endowed, but they move through lots of them very quickly and help lots of light touches, um, which is amazing. Um, but we we'll take an artist and we'll work with them. Oh, like like Albert White, the rhythm guitar player for um Beverly Guitar Walkings. I started working with him in 1995, and now it's 2026, and we're going off and doing festivals together still, you know. So we will they're lifelong relationships, the ones that work well. We're in it for the long term. Then we're playing on other records and we're we're touring together. So um it's very and it's very work-intensive, labor intensive. Oh, sure. You know, so we do we really make sure the artist we're working with is someone and really wants to work with us and it's a good fit, and we have something, they have something to say, and they, you know, so if that makes sense, it's very much a large, very large extended family kind of stake. Because we the work that I'm doing should be done by the government, you know. Um a penny a person would make a whole program where artists would be supported through statewide programs, services programs throughout the United States, helping artists find music and and music programs. You know, um, we had a little bit of that during the New Deal, but um we haven't had that since, and there's um the arts seem to get you know less and less so. Um, administration they stopped funding the NEH and the NEA, which is you know which makes it it harder for our non a lot of nonprofits, a lot of health organizations, like the government's changing. So um a lot of uh things that aren't funded are going kicked into the nonprofit field that makes this field more competitive to find dollars because it more people are hating up the family foundations and private individuals for uh their causes. And so uh, well, that's fine just where we are. So it's landscape always changes. That's I gotta say. It's never um this a simple thing. Once you think you've got to figure it out, it all changes again.

Joey Stuckey 57:06

Oh, I know. I know I try I try never to think I know what I'm doing because if I do, I know something bad's gonna happen. Yeah. The minute like like you know, I I made the mistake of saying, Oh, I I I got back from the Grammy week and NAM and didn't get uh a cold, and then I got a cold. So I knew better. I knew better, but it's the same thing with the music landscape. You well, the minute you go, oh, I understand what I'm doing, and then oh my god, why did I say that?

SPEAKER_01 57:31

Um then we have this great window of CDs where a little guy could sell this piece of plastic and make money, and then they took that away from us. So I know, I know.

Joey Stuckey 57:40

Well, you you know the the the thing is I was gonna say I uh I have one uh one more real question for you. Uh do you find uh that that local media papers and radio are they helpful? Are they still relevant?

SPEAKER_01 57:55

What what I well there's this little paper down in Eastern Carolina, I think does great. Uh the the Greenville Telegraph, and I think local papers in these small towns, um the UNC, uh the Daily Tar Heel does good in my neighborhood. Um, so I think um those those little presses go good. You go to these you go to big cities, Chicago, like they have the zine culture, which I remember in the 70s, but still going strong. So I think the people like local stuff. Um I mean are you finding their helpful? National media doesn't mean as much anymore to get something in the New York Times or the Washington Post or NPR, like we or PBS, like we used to get those hits, we had get a lot more donors, but it's also segmented now. It's um um, you know, I you know, I think podcasts are the things that what you're doing here today is like you're on the pulse of things that people love podcasts, and that's where the majority of people get their information and entertainment because they're sick of commercials and the stuff uh that's been fed down their throat. So these podcasters uh they find their tribe on these podcasters and will listen to that. I I've just started getting into it, and it's a lot of fun.

Joey Stuckey 59:11

But um, I mean it's it's great because you can really sort of target, you know, who you're trying to speak to, and yeah, and and that's that's great. And for for us, I mean what we what we do is you know, deep dives into the music business, um, art and technology, and you know, what what is it, and all those things, you know, uh coexist and they and they feed each other. So, you know, we and we we are not afraid to go into technical rabbit holes and uh you know we we we are not afraid to get uh uber uh philosophical. You know, we we we make sure people know this is not a light chat podcast, this is a deep dive. So you're gonna learn something, you know. But I I just wondered how much like you know, the local radio, the local media were supporting you and how how that landscape. Well, they do very well here.

SPEAKER_01 59:55

The the UNC uh public radio just um sponsored our series, and uh we have a performance series called Freight Train, Elizabeth Cotton's Freight Train Blues series in honor of Elizabeth Cotton in the town she was born in Carbone, North Carolina. It's a five or six-week series, and they partner with us and they um give us all these ads and talk about the radio. And so instead of 30 or 40 people coming up, it's a thousand people show up, and God bless them for helping us out, you know.

Joey Stuckey 1:00:24

That is fantastic. Well, I'm so I just want to tell you, I want to take a moment of personal privilege uh to tell you how thrilled I am that you're still doing this and uh that you have stayed uh you know with your mission, with your heart, and you have just continued to, and there's no other way to say it. You've just continued to bless people and give them uh uh not only not only some some some financial assistance, but but but some some intention uh in their lives. That's that I think that's the most important thing. You have a mission, you have uh something that you want to do, you have a reason to get on.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:00

And help them understand that they are great artists, you know. Yeah, absolutely.

Joey Stuckey 1:01:04

Yeah. They are important to our national voice. And I just love that you're documenting these things, that you're preserving these things. I I think all that is so fantastic. Before I let you go, let me ask you if there's anything you want to share that we have not talked about uh so far.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:21

Well, you know, I think we caught most of it, but you know, um, if you meet anyone in the neighborhood that's interesting, send them to musicmaker.org. You know, I've met many people that way. And look at our website, learn of our mission. If you want to become a monthly supporter, that'd be great. Or if you want to learn of any of our books or CDs, or please peruse, or you know, always just reach out to us. We love to get new friends, you know, and uh it's always uh baby steps are good. Just get us, send us a note, we'll send you a note, we'll send you some stuff, and we'll get to learn about each other. That's that's how friends are made, slowly but surely.

Joey Stuckey 1:02:00

Absolutely. I love that. That is so great. And and you know, that's the thing human connection. That's what it's all about. That's what music's all about. And and you know, that's the thing that um that that I always really love about, you know, when you when you get a chance to tour, when you get a chance to perform, uh you get to you're telling your story from stage, but then after you're done, you can go out and meet the people that were moved by what you did and and hear their stories. And that is just a beautiful exchange. Um we we love doing that. That's why we that's why we tour when we do. Uh it's hard to sustain, as you rightly say, the the the performance landscape is radically different than it used to be. Um, but but you know, it's it's it's still it's still worth it to do it. Uh you just gotta find the right place that that that can give you the support you need. But uh I think that's fantastic. Musicmaker.org. Uh you definitely want to go there. And and Tim, it's it's what a pleasure to uh spend some time with you. And uh I I really appreciate all that you have done. And uh I'm looking forward to just hearing more and more about the great things you do. And as always, you can check out all the amazing guests at www.stuckonsound.com.