Joey Stuckey 0:00

Welcome once again to Stuck on Sound. And I am so excited today. Jennifer Rowe is with me, and she is the executive director of Folk Alliance International. And I can tell you, I have had the privilege of attending a conference, and it was absolutely fantastic. And the mission is amazing. So I'm we're going to be talking all kinds of interesting things. Get your pen and paper out tonight because you're going to need some take some notes. Jennifer, thanks. Welcome to the program. I appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

Joey Stuckey 0:30

You know, I was so interested in your bio. And let me first compliment you on your bio because it was very informative. And I have had to uh I had a guest the other week who literally their bio was I I learned nothing. I was like, I and I was like, this is the shortest bio ever. And uh and it didn't really, you know, the guy has all kind of Grammy Awards and stuff, and it just it just didn't help. So anyway.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Well, I don't have Grammy Awards to lift myself up, so I have to put other things in the bio.

Joey Stuckey 1:00

Neither do I, but uh, you know, I find I find other things to to be proud of. Uh but you know, it's it's funny. I did almost steal Alan Parsons once, but they caught me. Um well the thing is like when you're blind, like you can't tell who's looking at you. Uh so it's hard to pick the moment when nobody's looking to walk off with a Grammy. But you know, they I I just you know I try to be sneaky. My I mean, my feeling, and my wife says this is not reasonable, but but my feeling is if I can't see you, you can't see me.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

And uh I mean that sounds like a two-year-old, Joey.

Joey Stuckey 1:34

You know, I well, I mean, that's that's absolutely where my emotional maturity is at. I mean, that's that's where that's absolutely where it is. And I still like Cheerios. Uh so yeah, so I I loved your bio though, because um it's it was so fascinating to me uh to hear that you started life uh working in our government. And um, and and and you know, and and we're up on Capitol Hill, and and and I think that's really I why this excites me uh is because um you know I grew up around that stuff. My dad was part of the Carter administration. Oh wow. Yeah, so I I grew up around all that stuff, and um and I think that it's so cool because you went from that, and we definitely want to talk about about uh your origin story and kind of how how you got where you are, but you went from there to doing something that really speaks to my heart, which was to working with um people with disabilities, and um and and that is exciting. And then you come to to where you are now, and you're making a difference, um, making sure that that there is culture, that there is music, that there is a place uh for people. And and I think that's the that's the really big thing um that we need right now. That's that's something that's missing. And as you are well aware, I am sure, uh the landscape for uh from our federal government as far as supporting the arts is pretty sparse. Uh so so you know, I guess what I'm saying is it it's exciting for someone of your background to be kind of like where you really need to be right now, in my mind. So tell me, tell me a little bit about your journey uh uh as far as just like how you ended up in in Capitol Hill and how you ended up where you are now. Like let's let's let's hear the let's hear the the details.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

It's certainly not a straight line at all. And I absolutely would not have envisioned myself in this role uh when I started on Capitol Hill as a 21-year-old. Uh so I moved to Washington, D.C. my senior year of college and did an internship on Capitol Hill. I worked for uh the then majority leader of the Senate. I'm from Kansas. Uh, the majority leader was Senator Bob Dole. Uh he was a very kind man. Um, he he was one of the authors of the ADA uh bill that passed. And so disability services were also very important to him uh personally. And then um he you saw that professionally in his career. Uh so yeah, that was a really great opportunity. I I majored in political science. I love DC. Yeah. I majored in political science and and DC is is my second home. I've lived out there for only six years, but I have been back uh ever since I moved back to Kansas City, which has been uh since the end of 2001. So it's been 25 years. I've been going uh back at least once a year. I haven't been back this this year yet, but there's still six months left in the calendar. Uh so there's time, and trust me, I will find a way. Um, I I have a lot of friends out there, but I I worked on Capitol Hill and then worked on his presidential campaign. And, you know, that's something I I used to be pretty shy about in this in this position, talking about my job, uh, because politically I would, I would say probably has have shifted quite a bit over the years in in ways of of um who I've interacted with. And and I I don't see myself as a registered, I'm not a registered Republican like I was as a 21-year-old or 25-year-old. Um, but I, you know, the the experiences that you have in that can certainly be generalized over the years. And what I've found fascinating in my uh position at Folk Alliance, I've had the opportunity to go back to Capitol Hill as an advocate for the arts. And so being on the other side of the table has been really uh an important part of this job at Folk Alliance and it's work that I continue to still do um here at Folk Alliance. So, yeah, the arts in in a different capacity, but it it's incredibly important. And I think that that most people, when you're having conversations directly with people, uh they can understand the value of the arts no matter what party they're in and see how the arts supports the economy and supports how you know that that's how we get businesses in in different cities. You have to have a thriving art city or art community to be able to attract businesses. And so seeing it from that financial perspective is is a is the language that I was taught to um while I worked on Capitol Hill, frankly. No, absolutely. Yeah, but I I moved perfect, yeah. Yeah.

Joey Stuckey 6:13

Well, well, I was gonna say is uh when you so you were you did you so you stayed in DC six years, you said, right? So that's correct. Yes. Okay, and and then and then and then it was time to to do something different.

SPEAKER_02 6:24

Well, you know, I was in my late 20s and I started dating someone back in Kansas City. So that's like a typical story as to why you're moving back. So I am one of those very typical folks. I moved back to Kansas City for for a guy. Uh and yeah, but I'm glad I did. Uh, you know, my family is all in Kansas City. I again I miss DC, but it's really lovely to be in Kansas City, especially now that I have children and be able to raise my family uh near family is is uh is pretty special as well. Absolutely.

Joey Stuckey 6:57

I uh how much did you like participate in the arts when you were in DC? I mean, I know the schedule those people keep in DC. I mean, it's it's madness. Uh, you know, I mean, it's just, you know, no breaks. You know, constant constant, constant, you know, deadlines. I mean, how much did you get a sense of of culture? I mean, because DC has some amazing uh cultural places to visit. It's just really, I mean, it's really great. I've I've toured there as an artist. Um, you know, I've done some stuff and and I've visited the Kennedy Center uh many years ago, and uh it was fantastic. And so I mean, you know, what how involved were you in the arts when you were working on Capitol Hill? Did you have time for such things?

SPEAKER_02 7:43

Well, I certainly had time to attend concerts. However, that was not at all what I was involved with. I uh worked for Midwest senators and worked in um basically agriculture work. Had nothing. I couldn't even point out a soybee plant for to save my life, frankly. But for somehow, I was involved in agricultural uh work. So that that was the main focus. Uh, because after I worked on Capitol Hill, I worked for the Commodity Futures Trading Commission. And then I also worked for a lobbyist. Uh so but you know, one of one of my fondest memories was going to the Kennedy Center and I saw Yo-Yo Ma and Emmanuel X on the Kennedy Center stage. So that was pretty impressive and incredible. And then other experiences, what was more common was going to the local coffee shops, or, you know, I remember seeing, oh goodness, I'm I'm failing to remember his name, but a Bossa Nova artist uh in Annapolis and saw him perform in a really small venue, which is my favorite way to see music, if I'm gonna be honest. And and that was an amazing experience. So those are, you know, all of us, or at least I hope most of us uh have that opportunity. And of course, you know, the Smithsonian Arts Museums uh would certainly spend time at those as well. Um but but is as a career, no overlap whatsoever.

Joey Stuckey 9:05

I have so I have to ask you, are you a musician? Do you play? Do you sing?

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Uh I am not. However, I like to say that in the office I probably sing the most, whether or not people want me to sing. I I grew up singing. I I, you know, I did choir in high school. Um, I played a lot of instruments growing up, but I failed at almost all of them. Uh the French horn, it was like in second grade, it was too too heavy for me to carry. So yeah, I was just too weak for the French horn. So um, but no, I, you know, I played the piano like every every kid was an art um on my family had to take piano lessons. I know my scales, but that's about it. Uh, but no, I'm not an artist. And and being around people that are, I'm incredibly intimidated to sing. I I, you know, I have a decent voice, but it makes me nervous.

Joey Stuckey 10:00

There's way too much talented people around. I mean, I yeah, I feel nervous writing a unicycle, so I I get it. I mean, there are things I can't do.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

Um, I'm I'm nervous writing a unicycle because I've I've seen the other side of that.

Joey Stuckey 10:13

Yeah, yeah. I mean, honestly, but you know, there's blind people in unicycles, not really the ideal combination. Um, probably for those of you that don't know, uh blind and drunk, also bad combo. Um okay, good to know. Good to know. I try to, yeah, I I have I don't drink for a lot of reasons, but uh that is the big one. Um, I I I've got enough problems going figuring out where I'm going. Um I just, you know, it's interesting to me because I I love the fact that you know you come from a very disciplined, you know, thoughtful uh place. Uh you you're you you're you're a facilitator, someone that gets things done, someone that helps helps things move. And and then and and you know, it's interesting. I'm so excited that you're in the role you are because we need it. And because uh I'm a little different, um, but most artists are really bad at the business side. And uh, you know, I don't again, I'm a little different because I grew up a little differently. Uh and also uh I'm a brain tumor survivor, so I have uh I have plans to my backup plans. I mean, I I yeah I am fast on my feet and I have at least 10 plans because nothing ever goes according to plan. So, you know, I I I'm very organized and stuff like that. And part of that's the blind thing, too, because uh, if you say hand me that thing over there, I cannot help you. If if you say uh hand me the uh remote control to the left of the lamp on the dresser, uh now we're talking. So uh yeah, now I can now I can be of service. But I want you to know when I attended a conference uh for the Folk Uh Alliance International, um, I was so impressed at the quality of what was being offered, both from uh a performance standpoint of amazing music, but but there was a lot of education going on. And um and I thought that was really fantastic. And I just wonder, I would like you to you know elaborate, if you would, on the mission of Folk Alliance International and talk a little bit about how you uh implement that mission. Like we like like let's look at the we and this is a podcast for nerds by nerds. So feel free to get from the technical, feel free to get as technical as you want. So tell me what conference you attended, first of all. I want to know. Uh this was 20 oh now you're testing my memory here. Oh, just tell me the city. Oh, it was it was uh Missouri, yeah, Kansas King. Kansas City.

SPEAKER_02 12:40

Okay, so that's where we are located. So Kansas City, Missouri. And before the pandemic or after the pandemic? After. After the pandemic, okay.

Joey Stuckey 12:48

I thought it was 23 or 24. I can't remember which.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Okay, it could have been either of those years. We were in Kansas City in 22, 23, and 24. Okay. Um, so yeah, I mean, our mission is um, we just updated our mission in September last year, and it's um to advance folk music and its communities by engaging, educating, and strengthening the global folk music ecosystem. And another thing that we did recently was update our strategic plan. Um, we just announced that, or it went out by email to our community um last month. And this strategic plan, which officially starts on July 1st, uh, has three focus areas. And uh the first one is year-round membership engagement, community structure, uh, and then financial sustainability and resource development. We are a nonprofit. That is an important thing. Um, and then the final one is positioning folk as a leading brand in, or positioning folk alliance as a leading brand in folk. And it's been really exciting to have this new strategic plan as we grow our organization and move forward. And um, and when we're thinking about how we are involved in certain areas, it's, you know, to, I mean, not like we didn't have a strategic plan before, we did, but it was so big. But now it's it's more narrow and refined, and it gives us more of a guiding post of how we're supposed to move forward and how we serve our members. And so I like to think about it every time we're we're putting something else on the table and like, how does this really serve our membership? And how does it make sure that we're serving the strategic plan? Um, you know, the the folk brand part is something that we go back to quite a bit because many people don't understand what folk music is, or they have a preconceived notion of what folk music should sound like or look like. Um, and that's not really the reality of what folk music is. Um, I like to give the example of, you know, folk music at its root is music of your people. And um, I think hip-hop would be considered folk, I know, hip-hop's been around for a little over 50 years and it comes from a community in a way that they tell their story about uh about their community, about their their life. Um, so that's really what folk music is, and it's gonna sound different depending where you are coming from. Uh, and we don't just have one, it does include the white man with the guitar, the banjo. Um, that is folk music, but folk music is also so much beyond that. Uh, and it has has a lot of different sounds. And so that's that's the thing that I'm excited about is is finding ways to really educate people, not just the public, but really the the industry as well, so that when I'm talking to a presenter at one of the various 100,000 conferences that I go to, that they understand that coming to our conference, I know, oh my gosh, so much. Um, coming to our conference, there's value because there are so many artists from all over that are doing really cool things um musically and have talent and writing and in all these different areas. And and we are um an amazing community. I think that's one of the number one things that we bring uh to the organization or from this organization is establishing a community of people that come together and support each other. Uh, I love to hear artists, especially artists to artists, that are connecting with each other and and helping each other build their careers. And um, our organization and the conference, which is which is the main thing that we do, we do a lot of things year-round as well. Um, but the main thing we do is have a showcasing conference where artists are able to perform in front of folks that support their careers from artists, managers, or excuse me, from agents managers to record labels and the DJs that put them on the radio, and then the presenters that book them on stages. So that's a big part of it. And then during the day, as you'd mentioned, we also have professional development panels. And those panels, we um are reminded that the artists in particular, well, everybody actually in this field are oftentimes entrepreneurs. Um, they're doing things because they love this work. Either they have a craft that they're they're working on, or they want to support an artist, or they want to put an artist on the stage. This is many times passionate people that are really in it because they they enjoy what they're listening to and want to support this, the cultural aspect.

Joey Stuckey 17:10

Yeah, I mean, that's that's absolutely the thing about music for me. This is this is why um when people say to me, Well, you know, how do you stay in the music business for so long? And and my glib answer is I'm too dumb to quit. But the the truth, but the truth of it is that I believe uh there is enormous value in being an artist and enormous responsibility. So I I take it very seriously. You know, recording recording history is an important part of being a musician and an artist uh you know promoting new ideas, stretching people's frames of reference, you know, introducing new thoughts, um, you know, just exposing people to to new ideas, all that is part of it. And you know, of course, entertainment's part of it too. But the the thing is, I mean, uh I love that uh the that you have uh thought of folk music in a broad umbrella, uh, because uh I am uh when I when I was first getting started, when you were on Capitol Hill and I was doing my first gig, we were about the same age probably. And uh so uh when I was 21, I made my first record, and you know, uh it was a just a painful experience because uh I was just a kid. Uh you know, and all the only the only musicians that could hang with me uh were all in their 40s. Like, I mean, I I had to play with older musicians. I know. So uh you know, but you know what? 80 gets younger every year to me. Oh my goodness, for real. So, so I but I I uh you know, I really uh I I I was just as this kid, and you know, I was like, well, you know, um this is my record, and uh right or wrong, I don't claim to be right, but I claim to be in charge. And uh so you know, this is my record. And and and it was very difficult because there was this you know kid boss around these 40-year-old musicians, and and they didn't really care for it. But um, but anyway, um the thing is, uh, I just I love I love music and believe in its power for positive change. And I believe in its power for community. And I think, uh, and I don't mean to uh beat up on the internet, but I will say that uh the promise of social media of connection uh certainly has, in my estimation, uh gone the other direction. Uh it's it's become more uh separative in my mind than than than uniting. And so I think music's more important and or art of any kind, really. But I mean I I can't see paintings, so uh, you know, I'm I'm a music guy. So I I think that that really is like the inclusion, the community, the the the support of one's neighbors and colleagues, you know, that is that is really important. And so the the fact that you are able to, you know, provide a place for people to do that work is really exciting. And as I say, the the conferences are I mean, a man, I was there as a panelist, and uh uh and and and so um I was on a disability panel. And um, but I uh made I absolutely uh stayed the whole week and just soaked it all in, and and it was just incredible. So, in all seriousness, thank you to you for for making these things happen. So I I I just I just kind of said all that to say I love that there's a broad umbrella. And as I said, you know, I have a bit of a restless spirit, and uh as an artist, I feel like uh I should be able to do whatever I want as far. I mean, yeah, I if I want to play jazz, I'm gonna play jazz. I want to play heavy metal, I'll play heavy metal. So I like that you've got this broad umbrella uh that that you're that you're talking about. And I also like how you have well-reasoned, okay. Hip hop is uh not what you traditionally think of with folk music, but you you have a uh a clear rationale of why it is folk music, and uh I think that's very cool. So are there is there anything that's not folk music? I mean, are there things that you know how how inclusive is this? Like how how how far can we stretch this thing?

SPEAKER_02 21:17

You can stretch it pretty far, but there are things that are not folk music. I mean, you know, the the pop music that is just the the beats and the you know, to get a catchy rhythm.

Joey Stuckey 21:32

So Taylor Smith is not invited.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Well, some of the things that she writes, I would say, are folk music. Yeah, um, you know, one of my staff members, colleagues the other day was was talking about Pharrell and the happy song and how that was really about um understanding how people react to the sounds and and then you know putting those sounds together to get the the most response from people. I may be you know totally saying this in. correctly, but but that's when you're we're playing songs, you know, and it's not about telling a story. It's not about um there's nothing wrong with it. It's fun, it's a fun song. But you know, it's a completely different way to to approach music. I also, yeah, so there are there's certainly things that that I wouldn't consider folk music, but you know, oftentimes you just know when you know too. It's hard to it's hard to put a finger on top of it.

Joey Stuckey 22:28

What are you, what I mean, what's the definition? Like how do you I'm just really interested in this from like a technical scientific perspective. What what what are the elements that make it folk or not folk? I mean what's what is that what does that look like to you?

SPEAKER_02 22:43

It's it's going to sound different depending on where you're coming from. And also to be clear, you know, we talk a lot um folk alliance submitted another Grammy proposal because we we've been trying for years to get back a traditional and contemporary folk album. Gram yes Grammy saw that email yeah so we're we've been working on this for many years and what you see at the Grammy level and when you're that definition needs to be pretty damn narrow. It has to be a narrow definition because we're looking at you know hundreds of albums um thousands of albums overall that are submitted to the recording academy for a Grammy award. So we have to be very narrow and specific to that. But when we're thinking about folk music, I like to think of it as the umbrella of many other genres. So and and I would say for example that some of these genres would be subgenres of folk music. So you know um we were in in New Orleans earlier this year we had a lot of Zydeco music. So I would consider that and Zydeco has much different instruments than bluegrass music. Oh absolutely but those are all different types of folk music um coming from again a tradition of where it originated from you know the banjo is from Africa. So you know we we're looking at those traditions as well and and how music is passed from generation to generation. We're also uh folk music is rooted in protest music. So you can go down the protest side of of using music um to to have your voice heard um and then we we also think of music folk music many ways as as a way to uh to live or how we communicate with each other how we how we interact with each other. So you know you can all be all woo-woo too if you want to but um I'd be like little woo woo yeah but you know it's it's hard to put a clear definition on folk because everyone's gonna have a different opinion on what folk music is and um but yeah I mean we have people that hate the idea of of profiting from folk music. Well commercial music can't be folk music. Well I don't know if I agree with that you if you want folk music to continue exactly you need to be able to feed the people that are playing the folk music. So yeah I mean that's that's an important part of it as well. And so it's it's hard to put a clear definition on it because everyone's going to come from a different perspective and lens and they're all valuable.

Joey Stuckey 25:14

Understood I I mean I I agree so I am uh full disclosure I am a governor of the Atlanta chapter uh of the recording academy and okay uh I am all about uh I I think your proposal not that I have much influence but I think it's totally reasonable um uh and and so and I'm the dream ambassador for my for my chapter which is if you're not familiar with that is the uh well it's really it's DEI but nobody's allowed to say that anymore so um it's it's it's uh I mean it we we uh our our job is to make sure that out of the 15 000 members of the recording academy that everybody has a voice that gets amplified and that they have a a place where they they belong and I think that's important work. So you know but but I I love I love that you've been working on trying to bring that category back. I'm all in favor of it for whatever that's worth uh it's worth a lot Joey it's worth a lot I'll tell you I love it I love it you know and it's interesting because um you know I'm I'm a big fan of the recording academy I I I I serve because I believe in in the service of it but you know uh it's important for everybody to talk about you know what they what they want represented in in in in this uh in this space and and to do that you know I'm I'm you know a big disability advocate so uh you know one of the things that I want um and that has been you know uh sort of hard to move the needle on is uh the technical Grammy awards I want to see uh adaptive technology um have a have a place in that in that uh space um so that's you know that's and but you know the the best way to make change is be on the inside so I I'm always I'm always about I'm always about advocating uh for what you think and and you know the the clearer and more articulate you are uh the better life's gonna be for you but also I am the energizer bunny of persistence and uh I I politely will bother you until I get what I want basically I'll just keep coming.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

Well I mean I think that's where we see artists that are successful are folks that are willing to um basically ignore the noise around them telling them you can't do this and just continue to move forward.

Joey Stuckey 27:33

I'll just you just I mean yeah well my my big thing and this podcast by the way its mission is to inform educate and entertain I mean it's it's all about all about that. And so I I am really one of the things that I believe in more than anything else is if I don't try the answer is always no. And so if I do try sometimes I sometimes I sometimes it works out. You know so so I think that the the effort is certainly worth it. So anyway I I'm I'm excited that you are doing that kind of advocacy and and and trying to make sure that uh folk music has has the the you know the channels it deserves to have so that it can continue to thrive and flourish and and and evolve. I think that's awesome. So you know the the other thing I would say and and and I love this is like you know uh the arts is a hard business at the best of times. Um and being an artist I mean honestly so you know I don't I own a recording studio I'm a I'm a full-time producer and recording engineer and educator and those things pay for my habit of being an artist. So so that's how it make ends me. So you know I I uh but a lot of people don't have that resource. And um you know um if you hear a noise in the background my cat has lost his mind my apologies too popular I can't hear it but I wish I could see it. Oh he's he's I'm not sure what's happening well I can't see him either so I don't know what's going on that's true but but anyway so but he uh he's a good he's a good boy but he's uh apparently he's I don't know if he's I think he's spotted a bear or something I don't know what he's doing but anyway Joey uh yeah well that's that's a secret no i'm I'm gonna make it in Georgia about an hour south of Atlanta so uh yeah I'm not I'm not a bear country although uh there was one time my wife and I went on a romantic uh getaway to a mountain cabin and uh because of a faulty starter log uh we had to open all the doors and windows and I was I am just like surprised that I'm talking to you now because uh I was convinced we were gonna be eaten by a bear. So well that would have been a story to tell I wouldn't have been able to tell it whatever but no anyway anyways I I I just want to say like you know it's I think it's so I think it's so exciting to see uh that that that Focal Lines International is is very much um in favor of community and diversity um and I I love I love the fact that that you know you're out there you know um just really just really sharing and supporting I I think that's so cool. I mean what is the best way for artists that do fit the folk umbrella uh to get involved and and to to get some of the resources and support that you're able to offer that's a great question and you know attending our events is probably the easiest way to do that.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

We also have online events as well so we just had an online conference um last month or late late April I believe and it was a great way we had a several people that came in for the first time and met us online in in Zoom rooms or listened to to live panel discussions. So that was that was great. We have typically monthly webinars we have um affinity groups that that um get together year round so it the probably the best thing to do is get on our mailing list or email list to find out about how we're how we're engaging with our members and our community at large uh coming to our conference in person is is an excellent way we also have five North American regions that have conferences as well. So yeah we had yes we and a lot of people don't know that there they're much smaller conferences we just had our Southeast regional folklines conference take place in Owensboro, Kentucky uh last weekend and I think there are probably about 250300 people there that came together. It's a very similar format to Folk alliance panels, workshops, showcases, private showcases late at night, um similar programming but at a much smaller scale and frankly a lot of times those conference smaller conferences are easier to navigate ours conference is huge and it can be intimidating.

Joey Stuckey 31:55

It's it's it's it is big.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

Yeah yeah we we had you know a little almost 2700 people in New Orleans this past year and um it's you know it's it's we provide plenty of opportunity for folks to network to connect with people and to meet people in advance of the conference as well. But you know there's you can't beat the opportunity to sit down and break bread or to um meet each other in person. That's really a special way. As I was saying earlier we are a community. This is a really great place to come together um people are valued in this space we take we take safety seriously we take feedback seriously we just started back our Cultural Equity Council um that is we had um several years ago and convened a few years ago and we are reconvening and have a new team that is looking at who we are as an organization and how we can can support our members in providing where they're right now in the process of collecting information to figure out like what kind of toolkit we could provide to our members and be able to make sure that we as an organization are serving our members and make sure people have the tools that they need um in their own spaces. You know if an artist goes to a venue how you know what what can they expect out of them? So yeah there's there's just a lot that we're doing throughout the year and folk.org is our website um our if you're an artist our official showcase applications are open uh through June 8th I'm not sure when this goes out but it might be too late.

Joey Stuckey 33:26

Um you never know uh I delegate this to somebody else to program the release so I you are smart Joey yeah I run my mouth you put them on the interweb that's that's like you know so and if you're if you don't apply for an official showcase um you know we have uh about 160 showcase boss but many of our artists do not have official showcase their other opportunities to perform our private showcases which are these late night intimate um performance spaces primarily acoustic and hotel guest rooms where they may move the bed to the side or move it out of the room um entirely uh and it is just a really special opportunity to to hear someone and hopefully to perform in that space that's cool uh and I would say that most most of our artists we have about maybe four or five hundred bands that come um and only 160 of them are performing official showcase wow that's yeah so so I mean I love these intimate spaces I mean because um you know this is this is where the bonding happens this is where lifelong fandom begins I mean it's you know uh Spotify uh is not is not gonna bring that to you uh you're gonna have when you when you get out and you're able to be in the same room with somebody that's that's when it happens and uh you know there's a magical thing that happens between the artist and the and the the list the listener and uh I don't know how to describe it but there is something that is that is given and received and uh what what do you think I mean let's talk about two things here first um and I think they go hand in hand so I believe you have a strong uh background in in probably like advocacy so I uh what what is it that that uh that that folk alliance international is working on as far as advocacy and then second kind of as a you know part two of that question do you have um do you have a a a philosophy or a strategy uh for your artists um to to be able to carve out a space for themselves is is there is there education on that is there is there is there a plan is there assistance for that because the landscape of the music business has always been something that's in flux but at the moment it's absolutely wild west in my in my opinion so so I'm I'm just interested from your perspective like you know do you have some advice for artists that are trying to uh continue to be artists and and and you know how can how can we how can we support that?

SPEAKER_02 35:56

Yeah those are two big questions um advocacy to to hit on that one first folklions does have an advocacy committee a part of our board and we are um involved in that space i'm I'm part of various different advocacy advocacy groups that meet online every month uh this includes the the um cultural ec or excuse me cultural oh goodness i'm um I am forgetting advocacy groups CAG is what they call it for short and it's a group of of um organizations throughout throughout the country that uh service-based organizations you know from opera america to League of American Orchestra to a whole bunch of of various folks that come together and share information um I am typically on the receiving end it's rare that I'm coming up but these are people that have like government affairs folks in their offices that are really leading the charge on that which is amazing for us to be able to benefit from um we also are part of the Fix the Ticks Coalition which is something that the National Independent Venues Association started to help with ticketing legislation. We are part of the artificial intelligence um in the arts and I'm failing to remember the the exact name in that so we will typically add our names onto different type of um documents to you know if if there's something's coming up on the federal registry, we'll respond to those as appropriate uh you know making sure that arts is is um is considered when we're coming up with with ways that we interact with artificial intelligence. So all these things are important things for us to consider certainly visa issues have always been problematic in coming to the US as a performer um so we're part of a performing arts visa group. So yes um cool that's great I'm glad to hear so that's all the stuff that we're doing on the advocacy advocacy side and then also um trying to be more active in reaching out to our members based on where they're located. So we've been sending emails to um the folks in the state of California because there's some California legislation um in Minnesota recently. So we're also doing that and I think there's one in North Carolina recently. So we're we're trying to to find more ways to engage with our members that way so they have a way and an action item that they can do, which I think is incredibly important. But as far as your yeah and far as far as your other question, you know, I think this is is part of the the the value of Folk Alliance is understanding the changing landscape. We, you know, thank you for coming to our conference and being on a panel. You you were an we're probably asked because you're an expert in a specific area. And that's what we have on our on our panelists because people are experts in specific areas and can certainly help um help provide data and information on specific parts to help advance your career or to give you more knowledge in in different areas. And you know when we're we're approaching an ever-changing landscape you need to figure out ways to make those adjustments um and maybe that's you know maybe that includes wearing a million different hats with most of our people in this in this field are wearing several different hats or finding different revenue streams like how, you know, what is something in your art that can be um add revenue besides just you know releasing another song there are different ways are there publishing opportunities for you um so you know you have to think of the the many different revenue streams and there are a lot um but you have to think about how you fit in that space uh and be willing to make changes and adapt because if you're not you will be left behind for sure.

Joey Stuckey 39:39

Absolutely absolutely and and part you know I would say I would say to to to piggyback on that thought is that it's also dangerous to try and catch a wave you know and become something you're not. So a lot of times you'll see artists go, well I you know if I don't do X I'm not able to keep up and then by the time you've shifted all your focus and you've tried to do something that's not really who you are, that wave is gone and the fad's over. So you know there's there's there's a lot to consider. And I think you're probably in the as a professional communicator.

SPEAKER_02 40:15

Oh I'm sorry I didn't mean to interrupt you I was just gonna say I think you're also changing who you are as a person and you're not gonna enjoy your art as much if you're if you're doing something that's outside of who you are and and yeah it's gonna be less and less it does it becomes disingenuous it really does.

Joey Stuckey 40:29

And that's I mean the thing is people want connection from music. That's the thing. Absolutely I I've always felt I've always felt like leaning into who you are you know all the way is is the way to go because uh anything else is just not not an honest transaction and and people will know um you know that that that's happening so and and it's it really is I I don't you know I don't I'm not gonna ever be uh Adele or Taylor Swift and sell out 8000 seat arenas and I'm okay with that. I you know honestly that's a lot of work. Joey Joey does not want to go down a zip line in a stadium uh you know I just just just not you know Taylor Swift can do that all night if she wants uh I I just I don't well first of all I don't have the body for it but anyway I I just don't want to you how do you know that Joey I I I I can't talk about that uh no but you know you know you know in all seriousness here's the here's my advantage over everyone Jennifer here it is uh the secret to my success I can look in the mirror as a blind man and go oh my God I am so good looking and there's nothing you can say that will change my mind so what I'm really saying is I I I I live on a high degree of self-deception so that's what I have to do. There is no self-deception there I think we should all look in the mirror and say how beautiful we are we really well honestly we should we should because we are beautiful uh I mean your inside will make the outside attractive is all I can tell you uh the you know the the the thing that I would say I I want to hit on this because and this I'm gonna warn you now I'm gonna I'm gonna be honest with you I'm setting you up so okay I'm gonna press your buttons I'm gonna push your buttons and watch it go so I really I am not a fan of artificial intelligence in the creative space I've been pretty clear about this and I've been pretty clear about it for very specific reasons. The primary reason is that the machine hasn't lived so has nothing of value to teach me. And so that that's that's kind of my you know I I don't object to technology as a blind person in the uh music industry uh I use a screen reader I use all kinds of technology and things that talk and you know things that help me uh make the world more accessible and it's all electronic and it's and you know some of it's AI and I've been preaching about using AI for the blind and and to to help that be our eyes and to help us interface. So I'm all about the technology but I'm not about uh losing the humanity. So I think those are very different things. I would love to hear you talk about artificial intelligence. You mentioned that there was some advocacy going on. I I just I really like to ask all my guests because it is like the disruptor uh of our industry at the moment now for clarity uh everybody thought the music business was gonna end with the phonograph record everybody thought the music business was going to end with the put a player piano role so that that didn't happen um and I'm not saying music business is gonna end with AI but I do think it needs guardrails it needs legislation and and it needs to be uh in its lane and I I would just love to hear your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_02 43:37

Yeah I mean absolutely it needs guardrails so we're part of the digital creators coalition is the name of it and uh it is it is really about uh making sure that if AI is being used that our um creative sector is being compensated for the use of AI in many ways and protecting the creative space with AI. I agree that AI AI can be a great tool. It can be certainly a great tool for an artist to use from an administrative level. It could be a tool that an artist used to, I don't know, potentially collaborate or to push back. Or I don't, I've never used that space. But when it comes to creating um creating information, I think it's it is a disservice if AI is taking information that the artists have created, whether it's a novel that someone wrote or a song that someone wrote and using that information without compensating the artist for that information or data, then that's problematic. And so I think we absolutely need to make sure that we protect the creative economy and culture to make sure that if AI is going to be using information that it's recognized as AI, that people understand that it's artificial intelligent and not someone that's behind coming up with something incredibly creative. Yeah, I don't know where the limit or the line is, but I know that there needs to be regulation around it.

Joey Stuckey 45:02

Yeah, I that's the thing that disturbs me the most because, you know, I mean, any technology can be abused and uh and and certainly has been. Uh, but the the thing that you know that's so concerning to me, and I and I I get a lot of grief for this, uh, but I'm I'm I I'm unapologetically a humanist. I I I you know um I don't know, Jennifer. You uh you sound young and virile and and too too young to possibly remember this. But uh do you remember Clippy with Microsoft Word?

SPEAKER_02 45:34

Oh yeah. I come on, I'm in my 50s. I remember Clippy. Oh no.

Joey Stuckey 45:38

You sound you sound about 27, I'd say.

SPEAKER_02 45:41

Um far from it.

Joey Stuckey 45:44

And well, and you look that to me, and you always this is how I trick my wife.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

Yeah, you look that to me.

Joey Stuckey 45:48

That's that's I trick my wife in a mirror. I can't see or smell because of the brain tumor. So I said, honey, you're gonna always look perfect and smell perfect. And uh we've been married 23 years this June, so it worked out for me. Um use what you got, but I hated clipping with a passion. Uh you know, so I kind of feel like AI is clipping. Like, I I don't need, I'm not asking for your help. I don't want it. Uh and like some of these AI tools, like, might I suggest how you start your mix? No, you may not. I put in my 10,000 hours. I'm not interested in your opinion, computer. I will mix my record the way I want to mix my record.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

So it doesn't, you know, I've never done that.

Joey Stuckey 46:25

I didn't know that was a thing that they suggest how yeah, and it's just and I'm just like, I was like, get and and you know, and the other thing, this this drives me honestly, like this triggers me mildly. Uh my phone on out on Outlook uh email has this co-pilot, Microsoft co-pilot, and it's constantly, it's constantly blocking my screen reader with this message saying, Would you like help writing this email? No, I'm an adult. I know how to write an email. I don't need your help to write an email. Please get out of my way. I just it's so annoying. And I have to really calm myself down. But it just the truth is, I mean, this is kind of the thing about AI that I find so insidious is that, you know, the corporations that spent $10 million on this stuff over the past 10 years, uh, they have a vested interest uh in, you know, for to be delicate about it, shoving it down your throat, making you think you need it. So I just, you know, I I stand against that. Uh I don't again, I think AI has some wonderful things that it can do. Uh I think in the medical field, the the fact that uh it can zoom through, you know, 10,000 MRIs in an hour or whatever. I mean, you know, that's that's great. But uh I just think, you know, here in the creative space that, you know, we do need to be protected. And it's not like a Luddite situation that I'm that I'm talking about here. Like it's it's not, you know, it's not not the fear of technology, it's not the it's it's the simple fact that there are some things that humans need to do for humans. Um and and art is one of those things. And um, and so I really feel very strongly about that. And and you know, I I I think when you look at uh the other the other problem is that uh the AI is kind of an echo chamber. I mean, it it's you know, it kind of feeds your bias and it and it and you don't really even know where it's getting its information from. I mean, you know, garbage in, garbage out. I mean, that's so I don't know if you are uh uh aware of this, you and your and your you know your your uh you know folks are aware of this, you probably are. But the fact is that the copyright office says if if it's solely AI generated work, it's not protected. And to get it protected, they have some nebulous language that says that they might consider uh some AI uh protected under a copyright if you can prove that you were the generator and not the machine. And how do you prove that? Well, a judge of 12 jurors will let you know. Uh so that is the problem. And I feel like any time spent in court is a bad idea. I just feel like I feel like that's not where you want to live. You know, uh and AI at the at the moment uh the law is so ambiguous that that's kind of where it's gonna be fought out. So I don't know. I just I just kind of wanted your thoughts on it because I I just feel very strongly that uh we need people talking about legislation. And and as you're I'm sure you're aware, you know, Tennessee has the Elvis Act, and there's a there's a handful of sort of scattershot legislation floating around at the state level, but there's really nothing at the federal level. So you know I'm excited to see that you guys are are are you've got that advocacy part going on.

SPEAKER_02 49:42

Yeah, I mean, the reality is the government is always moving slower than what's happening in the world. And uh yeah, I mean that's that's historically the way that it occurs. And you saw this uh for years with YouTube of taking advantage of just putting content out there without paying um copyright royalties because they could get away with it, maybe other so uh we're doing that now. People are using materials um and taking and scrapping scraping data uh to to to come up with with more and more information to make the um LLM is a large language model more um more effective and useful. So those are and and to me, it's not about the content that's being created using AI or the creator using that. It's where that LM LLM got that data from initially, which is likely from you as the artist who actually created the information in the first place. Um, or you as a, you know, we see so many visual images. Well, where did that visual image come from initially? Well, it's it's it's going and grabbing data and art from from um from all places to to be in its resource data bank. So that's where um I think right now we need to be really concerned about how we're compensating the people that provided that information to the large language models to be able to create AI images or AI text or um all that all that information. It it's it's incredibly complicated. There are people, though, that are experts, and I think it can be done. Um as long as as people are willing to do it, there there are ways to do it. We and it certainly government needs to to play a role in that.

Joey Stuckey 51:27

Yeah, and the thing is it it's it's it's very opaque as to like where the data is coming from. Like they have they have made it difficult to know. Um, you know, I think that's the other thing.

SPEAKER_02 51:39

Why would it why would they make it easy? I know they have no incentive to.

Joey Stuckey 51:43

Yeah, yeah. I I mean that that's totally true. So I I I I think that's wonderful. I um you do so many wonderful things, and I I look forward to coming back um for uh for a visit to to a conference in the near future. Um and uh I'd love to buy you coffee and say hello in person. And and uh I just I think that'd be fantastic. I want to be I've taken up a lot of your time, Daniel, and I'm so grateful for it. I want to give you a chance to to say anything that we haven't really talked about, make sure that everyone leaves with a great understanding of who you guys are and how to get involved. So is there anything you want to share that we haven't really uh covered?

SPEAKER_02 52:19

Well, we do have an annual conference that's coming up in Chicago in January 27th through 31st of next year, 2027. Uh, so we are incredibly excited. We're working towards that. Um, it's it takes a lot of work for us to get to a point of hosting a conference, especially in a new city. We haven't been to Chicago since 1991. Wow. Um so come and join us in that in that space. Uh again, sign up for our newsletter to find out information about us or go on different social media platforms. Um, we love to engage with people. We are at various events throughout the US and frankly the world. Um, we like to show up and our members are everywhere. So even if you can't join us in person, please consider becoming a member because we we are a member-based organization. And as the community grows, it strengthens and and becomes more important, stronger together. Um, so yeah, it's a it's a really exciting time to be a part of the organization. It's also a challenging time, honestly. I mean, everything is challenging right now. It's, you know, we yeah, we were just having a conversation of our Canadian attendance last year dropped 12% because of the world that's happening. We usually have about 17% attendance. We had 5%. And you know, we're looking at an inflation rate that's you know currently at 3.8%. And that directly impacts everyone that comes to our conference. It's expensive to be a touring artist right now, it's expensive to um come to our conference, and and those are things that directly impact us. We are a non-for-profit. We are in the process of starting an endowment for artist and presenter program that supports artists right now. It supports our official showcase artists. Last year, we had $50,000 donate to us that allowed us to support 28 official showcase artist bands. Um I know it's really awesome. We had, I think, over 70 artists that received comp registrations, and then we gave cash, $36,000 cash total to those artists to help them come to our conference. Um, we're doing that again for our 2027 conference for those official showcase artists. It will be random like it was last year because everyone is qualified, so we randomly select names for that. Um, and then we're doing a presenter program where we are bringing in um the folks that put artists on stage. And we have 20,000 for that program. So we will um curate a list of presenters because even though folk is broad, we have to be realistic about who's booking artists and making sure um that that presenters, if we have a whole bunch of hip hop artists that are performing at Full Glines, we want to make sure the presenters are there to support, support that and it makes sense for them to actually come because I I want to make sure that um we have presenters booking all sorts of music at our conference. So that's what we're have going on. Um yeah, we are very excited about this upcoming year. It's it's always challenging. Things are moving quickly, um, but we're we're gonna make things happen. And it's yeah, it's been a pleasure to be here, Julie.

Joey Stuckey 55:26

What what was what was the uh what was the um how do you pick the cities you go to like when you decided to do a conference?

SPEAKER_02 55:32

So I'm Chicago's awesome. It it well, let me tell you, it's actually we're in the process right now of looking for our 2029 and 2031 cities. And I was just at a yes, I was just at a site visit yesterday, um, or over the last couple days. I returned yesterday, and let me tell you, it's a lot of steps and hotel rooms.

SPEAKER_01 55:53

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:53

Um yeah, the cities like to wine and dine you. I would I was joking, I had a $125 steak the other night that I could only eat half of. Don't worry, this was not paid by Focal Lines, it was paid by the city. Um I mean, you know, there's fed eggs, you can send me some of that steak. Well, I ate half of it and they they donated the rest of it to a local dog shelter, which made me very happy. That's fair. I know.

Joey Stuckey 56:17

I will sacrifice for the dog shelter. That's fine.

SPEAKER_02 56:19

I know. I was happy about that. I'm like, thank goodness, because I'm not gonna eat a 16-ounce steak. Like, I just can't do that. No, I mean it was good. It's a long steak. It was a good steak.

Joey Stuckey 56:29

I mean, 16 ounces is that's that's silly.

SPEAKER_02 56:32

It is. Maybe it was 12 ounces. I don't know, but it was better than I should have been.

Joey Stuckey 56:35

Don't change the story now. I've I've got 16.

SPEAKER_02 56:39

It's 16. 16 ounces. Yeah. Australian steak.

Joey Stuckey 56:46

The Australian steak, I mean, that's you know, and it's it's a challenge because those cows speak a different language. And you do.

SPEAKER_02 56:52

Well, they have an accent. I can't understand a thing they're saying.

Joey Stuckey 56:55

You don't know if they're saying milk me or give me some grass. You just don't know.

SPEAKER_02 56:58

Um both, both of them. But we we go into the cities and it's it's about, you know, our conference. It's again, these are artists, and many of them are artists. Half of our attendees are artists, and um, they are entrepreneurs, and and outside of the artist group are entrepreneurs, they need to have an affordable space. So we do absolutely consider affordability at the top. Um, Chicago rose to the top because um they have a huge community, artist community. It's a great blues community. Um, we have old town school folk there. We had a an excellent infrastructure structure to support um outreach to the local community because we always like our local community to be involved. Uh and it's yeah, so the the challenges with with um Chicago, it's a union city. So everything at the hotel is more expensive, like quite a bit more expensive. But um those are things that we're navigating and excited to do. Um, of course, our our you you said you were in Kansas City, that's where our office is located. And we had um eight of our last 12 conferences in Kansas City. So we um are coming back to Kansas City in 2028. And then we did New Orleans, and the real big reason why we did New Orleans was again around the the the music in New Orleans and that um and we ended up doing a multi-year contract with New Orleans, so we'll be back in 2030 and 32. Oh wow, yeah, how cool. So we we think well in advance, and you guys are playing. I I know a lot of hotels, like I have walked through so many tell hotels. My my youngest daughter um was on a site visit when we went to Chicago one one year, which I was happy. She was only like nine at the time, nine or eight or nine. And she thinks that I'm going on vacation every single time I do. I'm like, no, I'm like, either I'm listening to music, which isn't a bad thing, or I'm at a conference, or I am walking through a hotel and looking at spaces. And it's a lot. It's a lot.

Joey Stuckey 58:56

It's a lot. I understand. I I I have I've I've I've not arranged a full conference, but I've done uh you know some some events and stuff like that. And I mean so many moving pieces. Um yes. Yeah, it's it just and it can be it can be just absolutely daunting. Um, but it's it's it's boy, once it, once it works out and and you you find your space. And I mean it's it's really uh an exciting time to play. And it's so neat that you're planning so far ahead and you know, constantly thinking about new things. I love that. I think that's I think you know, I I like to stay busy. I get restless if I'm not busy. So I think that's really good. I I just want to uh say one last thing before I let you go. I I want to applaud you, uh at least for the conference that I attended. Uh there was a lot of thought put into the space and how things were arranged. And there were rooms for breakout sessions um uh after after the panels, and uh there were uh there was there was some thought. At least the the conference I at that I was at had some quiet rooms for people that uh you know need got overstimulated, need to take a break. Uh, I know there's at least one of those at the conference I was at. Um and I mean that is absolutely incredible. The the the I mean from from at least from my outside perspective, it was a smooth, well-run event. And uh I'm sure everybody behind the scenes was running around like crazy, but it didn't seem that way.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:23

It didn't seem that way at all. It well, you did do it in Kansas City, so it's always easier in Kansas City uh than any other city because it's right down the street. But we we try to be very intentional about how we set up our conference. That's incredibly important to us. We have an amazing team. Um, our conference director, Jared Rivers, is great. He's been with the organization for 13 years. Um, I used to be the logistics behind the conference, and he he now has taken that over and has done and continues to do a tremendous job. Um, we have, yeah, Cindy Cogbill, who is our programming and um community director. She she is very good at really being thoughtful around the panels that we have during the day. Um, we have community members that submit panel ideas as well. Um, so and then yeah, it's it's really about partnership and and coming together and and a million contractors support and and bring that conference to life. Um, but it's a million pieces and just absolutely don't look behind the curtain. You do not want to see what's behind you.

Joey Stuckey 1:01:27

But for the most part, no intention. That's right. I just well, I just wanted to compliment you on it um because it was really fantastic. And you know, as a blind person, uh, you know, um navigation can be challenging. Um and uh and and if uh I say this a lot, I will probably get sued at some point for saying it. But if you have ever, if you've never gone through LAX with a guitar as a blind man, you do not know the definition of hell. It is it is absolutely, I'm sure LAX one day is going to get me for this. But uh it's just awful. And so uh, but what I was gonna say is like you know, things were, I mean, I had my lovely wife with me as my site guide, but by and large, I mean, navigating the conference was really easy. It was very thoughtful, and it was just uh it was a pleasure. I was so grateful and thrilled to see uh just how well thought out it was, and and uh and that was just a fantastic. So I wanted to compliment you on that because it was it was a great experience and and one that I would recommend to anybody to go and experience. Um I appreciate that. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:30

And I just wanted to say that you know we receive feedback all the time about how we can make things better. Sure. And I appreciate that. And we're we are constantly making adjustments. Um, so if you have any ideas, send them our ways. We try to make things happen. It doesn't always work out, but yeah, we we try to be responsive to to how our members want our event.

Joey Stuckey 1:02:53

Well, you you have been a pleasure and a privilege to talk to. And I'm so excited that an arts organization has someone with the with the sort of acumen that you do coming from coming from your background in political science and and all that. And that interestingly was my father's degree as well. And he uh he was the first person in his call in his family to go to college. And uh he was really he's a remarkable fellow. He's he's 87 and works 60 hours a week and just hadn't slowed down, and it's awesome. Wow, that's amazing. He's the man.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:22

Uh well, I will say one of my favorite classes was game theory. Um, so take it as as you will, but I'm using game theory all the time. That's great.

Joey Stuckey 1:03:31

You got hey man, you got to. You got to.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:33

And and Excel spreadsheets.

Joey Stuckey 1:03:35

Yeah, you know, I I love a good spreadsheet when it's somebody else's problem. Yeah. Uh I really do. My screen reader is not super fond of the of the of the uh cells and sometimes gets a little confused of where it is. Um, but but I but I love to make it my wife's problem and say, oh, we need to put a budget together, dear. Here's a here's an Excel document. I'll see you in an hour. Jennifer, thank you. And by the way, her name's Jennifer, too. Uh so you're you have one of my favorite names. So thank you for your time, my friend. I appreciate it. And as always, you can check out the amazing guests that are chocked full of good information on the podcast here. You can find it wherever your podcast hangout or go to the handy URL, www.stuckonsound.com.