Joey Stuckey 0:00

Welcome once again to the Stuck on Sound Podcast. We are for nerds by nerds, and we love to deep dive into many interesting realms with our guests. And today is someone who is a dear, dear friend of mine. I consider him a true mentor and really one of the smartest people I know. And it's my buddy John Crivet. And John, welcome to the program. I sure appreciate you taking time out of your schedule to chat with me today. Thank you so much for having me, Joey.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

I'm proud to be asked to be on your show. Well, we listen, we we do have a high bar.

Joey Stuckey 0:36

I don't think there's anybody. Well, I'm then I'm setting it low. Oh, no, no, no. Listen, I I have to tell you, you know, there's there's so many interesting things about you. Um, and you have you have uttered many profound utterances in the time that I've known you. But um I do always like to start with uh a question um that that I think is is really important to understanding some you know the people that we talk to, and that's the origin story. And so I'm always really curious, like, how did you find yourself in the audio business and and doing audio stuff or audio adjacent things for a living?

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Um well, I got I guess I have to think. I'm I'm in a bit of a fog here, being in the audio uh world. Um I don't know. I I think I'm kind of like everybody else. I was in a rock band when I was a teenager. Uh I was kind of a shy kid, believe it or not. And um I, you know, every TV show ended with like, you know, the the way they would uh express themselves is at the end of the show they'd they'd play a song, they'd have a rock band, whether it was a cartoon or a or the Partridge family or the Brady Bunch or uh Lancelot Link, Secret Chimp. They even chimpanzees had a rock band that they that's pretty impressive. And um and so I had rock bands, I played in rock bands in in uh high school, and um I think you know my dad was a lawyer, and he always said, you know, you really should do something with music. That's something that you really do. So I always sort of kept it in the back of my mind, even thinking I would maybe go to law school. I went to the University of Michigan, I played in a rock band there. Um let's see what happened. Uh I came out, uh, I graduated from college. I came to Boston with my girlfriend who wanted to go to law school. And so I got a job, I just wanted a dumb job, and I worked it uh uh in a record store, actually for the guy who uh you know who was a real mobster, this guy named Morris Levy, uh who was notorious for all kinds of bad actions and treating people horribly. And um uh I worked, I did that, and then I worked in advertising uh a little bit when I when I got out, and I was four years out of school, and the years started rolling by pretty quickly, and um I decided uh while I was still young to to kind of jump into uh the recording business. Um I bought a Tascam 388, uh, which is a uh a unit that was somewhat popular in 1988, and it had a uh a tape recorder built into a mixer, uh kind of like uh a Porta studio, but it ran uh open reel tape. Uh and I started recording anybody and everybody in Boston. Uh I had a a small demo recording studio, and I started charging next to nothing, and the phone rang off the hook, and I was recording pretty much everybody, and I kept raising the rates just a little bit uh each month, and um I got to be known in Boston. Uh I was making, I think, pretty good recordings considering I didn't really know what I was doing, uh, but I was uh, I think a decent musician. And uh I did this for 10 years, built up some expertise, uh reinvested pretty much everything I had. Uh someone asked me about teaching. I started teaching at a college in Boston. Um I didn't really know what I was doing, so I always had to play catch-up and always had to rely upon my fellow faculty to uh uh learn from them. Uh I think I got better. I won some teaching awards. Um and uh I remember my department chair said, John, I was kind of the junior guy on the faculty, and my department chair said, John, uh, we're gonna start a section of the audio engineering society, a student chapter, and you're gonna be the guy who's gonna run it. You're gonna be the faculty advisor. And I thought, oh damn, this is gonna be the worst thing that ever happened to me. I'm gonna be exposed as a complete fraud, a complete failure. This is an organization, the Audio Engineering Society, with a uh a peer-reviewed journal and standards and technical committees, and they're gonna see how little I actually know, and they're gonna laugh at me, and this is gonna be the end of my teaching career. Uh, little did I know. Uh, 15 years later, I was elected president of the worldwide organization. Yeah. Um I just uh what I learned, Joey, was the value of curiosity. I just invited all kinds of interesting people. I asked them all kinds of questions. The first person I invited was a guy I knew who's now one of my dearest friends. His name is Don Peloose. Don is 90 years old. Uh, but back then uh he was about 65, and he came and he spoke about recording Sly and the Family Stone and Chicago and Jaco Pistorius and uh George Harrison and all kinds of great people. And uh we talked about his career. I had someone come in and we did wax cylinder recording, someone from the Edison Museum. I had a special agent from the FBI come in and we talked about surveillance and uh and forensic audio, which was really cool. Oh, yeah. Uh just all kinds of really interesting people. Uh and it was really about me asking questions and finding out information. Uh I got invited to be part of the AES uh education committee. Uh I started putting together this thing called the the uh Boston Area Definitive Audio Student Summit, otherwise known as Badass. It was a third day of workshops and tutorials and uh exhibitions and companies would come and we'd have about four to five hundred college audio students from all over mostly the northeast United States. That's amazing. And um that was great, and uh they made me the vice chair of the AES Education Committee, and then someone asked me if I would run for uh vice president of AES for the North for the Eastern United States, and I lost an election. So I uh they didn't want to get rid of my enthusiasm uh for organizing stuff, so uh they asked me if I would be the education chair for AES, and I loved that. It was a blast building community and meeting lots of people and organizing recording competitions and student design competitions and all kinds of things at events all over the world. And um that was fantastic, and then I was asked if I would uh if I would run for president of the audio engineering society, and I did, and I won an election. I beat a a much more deserved human being uh from Australia, and uh I became the president of AES uh about 10 years ago, and um that was amazing uh going again around the world and and doing all kinds of interesting things. And um uh I've uh I did that. Uh and I ch actually I know you because I was asked if I would chair some conferences. I chaired a conference on audio archiving preservation and restoration at the United States Library of Congress that you were one of the registrants for, and that's how you and I got to know each other. Yeah. Um I again, I don't know much about audio archiving preservation and restoration, but uh I'm good at organizing stuff, and the Audio Engineering Society is filled with all kinds of great experts. So I got all the experts to be on a committee, and I made sure that we uh spoke to all of the great issues. We had uh 250 of the smartest, most engaged people on the topic of audio archiving preservation and restoration who joined. It was amazing. And we talked about all kinds of great things, and I think people really enjoyed that conference. I was asked to do it again. Uh, so we did it uh five years later at the Library of Congress again. Uh and uh we again we sold out this conference with with uh an amazing group of academics and experts, and we pushed forward the science and practice of audio archiving preservation and restoration. I've also chaired conferences on education, uh on high school education, and um I've just really enjoyed this. The greatest thing I think I ever did was join the Audio Engineering Society. Uh that's an organization that has given me so much. Uh people, uh students are always asking me, why should I join? What do I get out of it? Uh if you have to ask, then you probably shouldn't join. But it's really a place where I engaged and met an incredible community. I I helped to build an incredible community. And um uh that was really fantastic. And a lot of it was not based necessarily on my expertise, but my curiosity in putting people together and asking questions.

Joey Stuckey 12:32

I love that because that is, I think, an essential tool to a life well lived is is curiosity and the joy of learning something new. Yeah. And um, I I think that is absolutely brilliant in in what you say. Now I have to backtrack one moment because I want to know uh what kind of what kind of I I know you play a little ukulele or ukulele if you want to get all technical, but what instrument were you playing in these in these early rock bands when you were searching for fame and stardom?

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Oh, I think I started playing bass and then I was playing uh guitar and singing and writing songs, and in other bands I played keyboards, and I even played drums in a band. Um, you know, I'm equally uh ungood at all of them.

Joey Stuckey 13:25

Well, I've heard rumors about a jam session at the ro the recent uh Pan American conference uh on a rooftop bar somewhere. So I I figured did you get up and jam some, John?

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Uh I did not. I I watched other people. Um I tried to uh I tried to book uh an Elvis impersonator, the top Elvis impersonator in Mexico for our our thing, but unfortunately he had another gig, but I hadn't booked him for next year.

Joey Stuckey 13:59

How interesting.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

It's it's gonna be great. It's gonna be awesome.

Joey Stuckey 14:03

That is that is amazing. Well, you know, what I what I want to talk about is I love the the um the idea, and I I always think of you, this is an unofficial label that just sort of sits in the back of my brain when I think of you. I I always think of you as like the great connector. Um, I always think of you as like, you know, if John doesn't know him uh or doesn't have a lead on on who to ask about something, then it's probably just not possible. You know, it's just you you have such a gift for for for bringing, and I think you used this word earlier, community together. And I certainly agree with that on with AES as well. And I've I sit on four or five different committees. Um, and and you know, my my primary involvement, uh, I was sort of a passively involved um, you know, um, and then it didn't didn't use my membership to its fullest capability until you and I met. And then I was like, oh, this is clearly something I need to be, you know, more participatory and and really get involved to get to know these people. And you're right, it's it's it is a true collective of just brain power. I mean, and and and also wonderful people, but yeah, um but but it's just some of my favorite people.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Joey, that's how I know you. I mean I wouldn't, we you you and I probably wouldn't be friends if it wasn't for the audio engineering society. Um, you know, it's interesting. My I think, you know, there are people who have expertise in automotive audio and in archiving and restoration. There are people who have expertise in in uh immersive audio and in machine learning and artificial intelligence and in uh uh so many different aspects of audio, hearing disorders. Um I'm I think my expertise is in building community and and and engaging industry with acad academics. And um again, you know, I I was asked if I would be, if I would lead this student section. I thought it would be the worst thing for me. Uh it would expose me as a fraud. And I realized I had a skill that a lot of people didn't have. That's right. Um, which is bringing people together. And that was uh, you know, that kind of worked out for me.

Joey Stuckey 16:31

Uh well you you have a natural affinity for for leadership uh and and and and you know and orchestration, uh just just organization is what I meant to say. Uh but I have to ask you, when you I know that you I'm I'm I'm the same way you are. I'm I'm I'm curious about almost everything. I mean, I really have an interest in in almost everything. I mean the the universe at large is fascinating to me. And but when you teach audio, I'm curious because of the background you had when you started your studio and all this kind of stuff, do you have a because our industry changes, you know, on a regular basis. Um do you have some core principles um that you like to impart uh to to everyone, regardless of whether they're you know beginning their journey or the middle of their journey? You know, like what what is your core philosophy of audio?

SPEAKER_00 17:26

So I would say that there are some big themes uh that are important uh that you know, when people are looking at audio when they're when they're nascent, when they're just starting out studying, uh, you know, a a monkey could learn how to use Pro Tools, uh, you know, a piece of software. Sure. I think that there are bigger themes uh that are really worth understanding. Um how do we how how do audio engineers signal process? How do how do we process the signal? How do we uh you know what what is it that we can do to manipulate uh audio signals? Uh you know, we can we can uh uh change the audio spectrum, uh we can change the dynamic range, we can manipulate using uh time-based processors. Um, what are some of the tools that we can use for uh for transducing audio from sound waves into voltage and from voltage back to sound waves? Um and and what are some of the issues that we're looking at when we're doing such a thing? Uh how can we look at a technical piece of equipment and maybe use a block diagram? How can we read and write block diagrams that help us really sort of understand how we can trace signal flow? Some of those things I think are really important. I think before we before we start uh before we start uh getting involved with software and the minutiae of software. So I I guess I don't know, maybe my students find that boring. Uh I I don't think it is. I think I want I want students to think like audio engineers. I want them to think not about, you know, as they look down upon a console and think about where sound is going. I want them to really sort of understand how to track down signal issues. Oh, that's a big deal.

Joey Stuckey 19:51

Yeah, that's that's yeah. Signal flow is is absolutely key because there's so many places it can be interrupted.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

So I'll I'll tell you a secret. Uh maybe I should say this, but but um I don't know, you know, I've been teaching, this is my 30th year of teaching audio. Nice. It's been awesome. I've really enjoyed it. I've won some awards for teaching. Uh I feel like I've influenced some young people and set them on in motion for their careers. But what I really enjoy now are the conversations that I have with professors talking about uh pedagogy and curriculum. How are we teaching certain technologies? Uh how are we reaching students? Are, you know, uh audio technology is a moving target. It's changing uh really every year, probably every month, uh new technologies are coming out. Uh and and how are we reflecting that in our curriculums? Um I I really enjoy those conversations that I'm having with educators and I'm having with developers of products.

Joey Stuckey 21:05

I think that's a powerful Yeah, that's a real powerful statement because uh you're probably familiar with Moore's Law, and um you know it it it seems to just be, you know, by the time you buy a new piece of software, it's already out of date. You know, and it's it it is hard to keep up, as you say. There's there's so many things changing. And I really agree with you because I I taught um I taught uh as adjunct faculty for over a decade uh at university level and um created some curriculums and things like that. And and invariably somebody in in the music department that didn't really understand audio would say, Well, where's all the software that you're teaching? I said, I I don't need to teach that. These kids come out of a cradle knowing how to use a computer. Like that's not I don't I don't need to teach them that. What they need to understand is signal flow and and microphone position and you know, some some other stuff that fits. Filtering and all these different things. This is what we need to teach. And you know, how do I, how do I, how do I position a mic in a room that's not acoustically really great and still sound okay? And you know, all these things. I do have to ask you, because um you are a fellow, fellow audio uh enthusiast, uh, do you suffer as I do from microphone envy? Because I really want them all. I'm obsessed, John. And I I'm I have a goal. I'm trying to die with one more microphone than Sylvia Massey.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

So that's well, uh, you know, I think uh my friend Alan Vanitosh of TV. Oh, yes, Alan, absolutely.

Joey Stuckey 22:44

Telefunken.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Uh uh Alan said, or I he he likes to say you can't own too many microphones. That is so true. And um, so I think he's probably right. Yeah. Uh microphones are really interesting. Uh the technology is really interesting. One of the things I've been doing uh every couple of months, we do this virtual tour of the telefunken microphone factory. Yes. Do it over Zoom. And um, you know, before there was COVID, I used to bring my students 100 miles southwest of Boston to the telefunct microphone factory in South Windsor, Connecticut, and we would walk through and we'd see where microphones are tested and and measured and assembled and benchmarked and measured again. And uh we'd see, you know, we'd look at at different cables and connectors, uh, what happens in a seven-pin connector versus a three-pin connector, why some microphones need separate power supplies, uh really, you know, how capsules are put together, uh and and polar response patterns are are uh selected and changed. Um really interesting stuff. And when COVID happened, we started doing these virtual tours of the microphone factory on Zoom for students all over the world.

Joey Stuckey 24:21

And it's now how does one get get signed up to participate in that tour?

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Well, we will on uh I have a Facebook group. It's called Hey Audio Student, and oftentimes I will uh uh advertise that we are having a virtual tour of the microphone factory. And we used to do them specifically for just classes. We now they've been so popular that we open them up to anybody. We probably do one every six or seven weeks. Um and it's interesting. In about uh 60 minutes, we will walk through. Alan Venitosh will walk through the microphone factory and he'll take us through some uh historic microphones. Uh he will see where uh where uh you know microphones are tested, we'll see where capsules are made, we'll see where people are, you know, what people do in a microphone factory, what kinds of tools do they use for assembling microphones and power supplies, uh, you know, what kinds of software they're using for design, uh, you know, how they're dealing with even things like the color of the microphone and and uh how they make frequency response graphs. It's just a really interesting uh way to spend 60 minutes for anybody who's who's interested in that. Um and uh you know, we we do that. Uh uh we're actually kind of overdue. I saw Alan down in Mexico City, and we said, oh yeah, we we need to figure sit in front of a calendar and figure out the next time we're gonna do it. So we will let you know.

Joey Stuckey 26:16

Well, I I know that everybody that listens to this podcast should definitely get on the Hey Audio student Facebook group. Uh and how many members do you have on that thing? It's it's some astronomical number.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

What's so I started it about 14 years ago, 14 years ago, no, maybe 12 years ago, and uh I wanted to chronicle the events and opportunities available to students of all ages and levels. I wanted to let them know, hey, there's an event that's happening. There's a tour of a microphone factory, or there's an AES convention, or there's a uh uh a local section in Atlanta is getting together for something. Uh I just wanted to post all these things. The NAM show is happening, or you post job opportunities as well. And and so, yes, so I so I wanted to post some of those things. And um I now have 231,000 active members of the phone. That's amazing. And last year I had over 77 million views. Uh stupid little Facebook group about audio education. So I want to know what's happening on different campuses. Uh I'll post about that. Uh when I can't sleep at night, I will repost job leads. Yeah. Um and so, you know, my thought is you might be in Atlanta and you're you're not leaving Georgia, but you're thinking, uh, you know, I saw a job lead for something in Singapore or in Brazil or in uh in Denmark. And I'm not I'm not gonna move to those places, but but it might give you an idea. Hey, you know, this is something that I can do. Maybe I can convince a company in the place where I live that they should hire me to do this kind of work.

Joey Stuckey 28:16

Yeah, it's it's a brilliant, it is a brilliant way to just sort of just sort of you know brainstorm on the on the Facebook group that you've created. Yeah. And I was blessed to actually go, uh, I think it w I I think it was 2019, I can't remember, but it was uh when I actually got to go with you because there was a conference in Connecticut uh for educators, and we we actually went to the physical um uh telefunction you know factory and got a chance to to do the actual in-person. So that was really a thrill.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

That's right. They host it was for the 2019 AES uh conference. Hold on, um I've got a uh high school audio educators conference. That's what it was, yeah. And uh we had uh Telefunken was kind enough to be a sponsor and also to invite about uh 150 educators to uh their factory where we had a barbecue and we did and uh just agree.

Joey Stuckey 29:21

And they gave away free uh glasses with uh glasses you could drink out of that said telefunkin' on them. I I have two.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Very, very nice. Let's go a second one. I think I have one. Uh I have more, but I think uh my family members all destroyed them. Yeah, it happens.

Joey Stuckey 29:38

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

But um but they're great. And and uh that was awesome. It was great having you at that conference. Joey, we kicked it off by doing a wax cylinder recording with you singing uh a special rendition of Georgia on my mind.

Joey Stuckey 29:55

It's one of my bucketless moments, I gotta tell you, to be to to record on the wax cylinder was absolutely a thrill and a half because it it, you know, it's it's mechanical, but it wasn't electronic. It's all powered by the energy of sound. And and uh boy, I mean, how exciting! And just just to just to be around that technology was just incredible.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Sure. Well, I've done uh a number of wax cylinder recordings. I used to work with a guy named Jerry Fabris, who was at the Thomas Edison Historic Site in West Orange, New Jersey. He's since left, so we haven't done it in a while, but we we made wax cylinders of Suzanne Vega. Yes, I I've heard that one at the Edison Museum. Uh we did uh we did some tin foil recordings that predated the technology with wax cylinders. Neat. We recorded the US Army Hellcats and Jazz Band at West Point. Um uh we've done uh a number of great uh wax cylinder recordings, and uh it's a wonderful way of demonstrating the intersection of physical science and audio recording to students. Absolutely of any age and level.

Joey Stuckey 31:18

And it's the origin of the word clipping. Um when we talk about clipping audio. Um when you say too loud the the the stylus or blade or whatever you want to call the thing that the grooves that cuts the grooves in the wax cylinder or uh and I'm saying this imperfectly, but you know, it it can it can it can go too far if you're too loud if you yeah. So it was it was it was amazing.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Yeah, so so very interesting. Uh you know, we I did a bunch of these wax cylinder recordings and and um well I was actually gifted mine and uh I have it.

Joey Stuckey 31:55

Very wax I and and the and he and he said to me, uh uh you know um uh let me just archive this for the Edison Museum. I'm gonna I'm gonna make it to an MP3 and then I'll I will give you your cylinder. And I was like, I will put it in a place of honor in my studio. And I really appreciated that.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

Joey, if you have the I don't know that I have the MP3 of your recording, but I would like to send it to me, or if you would post it on hey audio student.com. I will do that.

Joey Stuckey 32:26

I will do that because it was so cool. It it it was just like I say, it was just so much fun. And you know, the first time I heard the technology was at your uh conference on audio archiving and restoration, and it was Colqist and the City Pickers that were uh did the wax cylinder.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

That's right. Woody Guthrie's grandson came to version of this land is your land, and and you know, it had a lot of relevance uh with all kinds of uh crazy things going on with the government, not to get political. Um, and um that was fantastic. You know, it's interesting. I I I did this as a volunteer. The work with the Audio Engineering Society was entirely as a volunteer. Um and uh, you know, someone asked me if I would chair this conference in 2018 on audio archiving preservation and restoration. Uh one uh another really interesting thing that came out of that is that I was uh I was invited to give a presentation on disruptive audio technology at the AES conference in on uh in Latin America in Lima, Peru in 2019. And I spoke about disruptive technology, and one of the things I talked about was optical imaging of disks. That uh there's a system called the Irene, and it can uh it can take a high-resolution image of a broken disk and literally decode that as sound. Wow. Which is is fantastic. And there are only six of these systems in the world uh of these uh Irene systems.

Joey Stuckey 34:17

Well, where are they based, John?

SPEAKER_00 34:18

What are the uh two of them are at the Library of Congress. One of them is at a place called the Northeast Document Conservation Center in in Andover, Massachusetts. There's I think one in India, there's one in at Cal Berkeley at the Livermore Lab where it was invented, and I'm not certain where the last one is, um, but it's uh 2D or 3D images, and I was speaking about that, and afterwards I was having lunch with some professors, one of which was Professor Ricardo Escillon of Javariana University in Bogota, Colombia, and Professor Escillon tells me the story of Jorge Gaetan. Gaetan was the was kind of like the Bernie Sanders of Colombia in the late 1940s. He was the progressive mayor of Bogota, Colombia. He was the champion of the working poor, and he would give all these speeches all around the countryside of Colombia, and they would follow him around with a direct-to-disc recorder, literally making records of his speeches. Gaetan was about to be elected president of Colombia, but on April 9, 1948, Gaetan was assassinated. He was shot to death. There were horrible riots, horrible fires. Much of the city burned, and the police came and they smashed all of the recordings of his speeches into pieces, thus silencing this important political leader. It was a very traumatic experience for the people of Colombia and still very important. And uh Professor Escadillon says to me, John, I know this woman. She's in her late 60s, she's the adult granddaughter of Gaeton, and she has the pieces of the discs. So we get slowed down a little bit by COVID, but uh in August of 2024, uh Professor Escadon flies up from Bogota, Columbia to Boston, and we go to the Northeast Document Conservation Center. We use this technology, the Irene technology, to play back and get sound off of these broken discs, and we bring back the long-silenced voice of this important political leader. That's amazing. I think it's really interesting. Uh it combines not just technology, uh, but this is a project that also brings forward uh political science and history and sociology. And uh so we're working on this project.

Joey Stuckey 37:24

Uh are you restore- are you doing like some like audio repair? Like now you've you've got the audio, but are you kind of trying to like clean it up using like spectral layers or what's what's happening next?

SPEAKER_00 37:33

You know there are various things I you know that that we've that we've been experimenting with. So, you know, people I think in audio archiving, preservation, and restoration are basically of mixed minds about um do we leave it? Uh you know, is what's important the words, or do we clean it up? So there are there are different versions and and technology is changing pretty quickly to, you know, uh we've had uh different uh success uh trying to uh clean it up, but but um I don't know. We've done presentations, we've done presentations on this project in uh in Bogota, in Medellin, Colombia, we've done presentations in Mexico City, in uh in Istanbul, in uh uh Warsaw, Poland, in Krakow, Poland, and uh hopefully we'll do more.

Joey Stuckey 38:40

Well, what it's interesting that you mentioned that people are in different minds, because I know you will be aware. I wasn't aware of your involvement until recently, but I know that you will be aware of the Les Paul Foundation. And um you you are probably uh acquainted with Tom Cabuso. And sure. Um and so I I found out about the Les Paul studio um earlier in 2026, right as I was getting ready to leave California after being there for Grammy Week and and NAM and all this stuff. And I I called Tom up and said, Hey, I'm I'm a blind man that's in that that is worships Les Paul. Can I come in for 15 minutes and just touch the board? That's what I want. He gave me two hours. And he told me, and and I thought this was really a fascinating thought process that had not occurred to me. Um, but you mentioned it here. He he said, I'm gonna play you some of the stuff we've uh restored. And um he said, What I want you to know is that you may think with today's uh aesthetics that the mix is a little out of balance, uh, or maybe the vocals are a little too loud or whatever. He said, But what I'm the reason for that, he said, I am not trying to remix Les Paul's music. I'm trying to present the version that he intended uh back when it was recorded. Yeah, and I thought that was a really fascinating and thoughtful point because with our technology today and with the aesthetics of today, uh, including, you know, uh the the ramifications of the loudness wars back in the 90s and the early aughts, and you know, there's there's a whole different really aesthetic going on. Yeah, um, so I thought that was a fascinating point to make that that the goal was to clean it up where it was audible, but not really to fundamentally alter the balance or the mix or the you know, and I thought that was interesting, and it relates back to me, and I wonder how you feel about this. Um, I have to imagine you're a Beatles fan. Um so you know, the the new records that Giles Martin has has had, you know, produced where they've been remixed are absolute marvels of technology. But you know, emotionally, I don't connect with them. I connect with the old stuff that has all the dirt and the gunk and the and the flaws. So how do you feel about that? I mean, what you know, that that idea of like leaving some of the imperfections and and letting it be a testament of what it what it is.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

Um you know, uh I'm kind of agnostic about it. I don't, I don't to be perfectly honest, I don't have a a hard view of of those things. I know that, you know, with with um machine learning and artificial intelligence, we have the ability to really clean things up. Yeah, is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? Maybe it's both. I don't know. Um I I will say that uh I have a great deal of respect for Les Paul. Um, you know, Les Paul is is you know is somebody who was smart enough to be able to invent his own stuff and and really to create the technology as he was creating the music and and and really pioneered a lot. And I felt like that was such a such an important message and so inspiring to people to students of all ages that I actually worked with the Les Paul Foundation for a while. I put together um I put together a uh a group, the um Les Paul Audio Educators Advisory Group, um, where I invited college professors to uh you know uh access some resources about Les Paul, um uh including videos. And and really the idea would be uh that you know the Les Paul Foundation is great at reaching out at high schools and and middle school students. I remember my student did a project about Les Paul as an adventure. Oh nice. Um but I think that as a as a university educator, I think we could do a better job of teaching Les Paul in our curriculums of audio technology. How can we not be talking about Les Paul? Uh he's such an inspiring figure. Oh, yeah. So uh, you know, my goal was to really uh make educators feel very uh empowered to incorporate Les Paul into their program curriculums at universities around the world. Uh so we did that. The the they've done a marvelous job of of putting uh some incredible, you know, refurbishing some incredible Les Paul technology and putting it in in In uh a classic uh location in Hollywood. And uh it's a great resource for colleges and college students and college professors, and I would encourage anyone to take advantage of that.

Joey Stuckey 44:16

It's it's pretty amazing, and and I have to say, I um I uh you won't be surprised to hear that I politely persisted uh until I made them agree to let me be the first artist to make a record there.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

That's great. That's amazing.

Joey Stuckey 44:32

So it's happening, it's happening next month.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

You know, one of the things uh you know, the that's that's incredible. Um, you know um uh I was lucky enough to introduce them to the to the uh folks from audio movers. You know, the Les Paul board, the monster, is you know, was was uh created by Rain Narma along with Les. And you know, it's it's basically a Fairchild compressor with with different channels. It's really fantastic. And um uh you know what you could do is you could send you could use a program like audio movers to send lossless audio from any place in the world. You could send it from India into using a program like audio movers, a tool like audio movers, and it could go through the tubes of the of the uh of the monster and come back to you as lossless audio. Uh that's pretty impressive. And so so uh it it's it's really incredible. I I'm I I believe strongly in in uh students making sure that they have an understanding of Les Paul. You know, they show up in college audio programs at age 17, 18, 19, 20, having yet to uh develop their affinity for who their heroes are, who are their audio heroes. And so I think uh it would be criminal if Les Paul wasn't part of these curriculums.

Joey Stuckey 46:16

Well, and the other thing I want to say is you have been, if I'm not mistaken, and please correct me if I'm wrong, uh, but you've been really into the assisting audio movers to do some really interesting things. And um, and I am I am a real uh real impressed with that. Now, I there was a I'm I'm I'm I'm like 95% sure you were involved in this. There was a thing going on, I don't I think it was last mid-last year where several studios collaborated um and used audio movers and did and did some pretty interesting things uh together. Tell tell me real briefly about that, because I thought I think that's amazing technology.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

So yeah, audio movers is is really interesting technology. You know, if you're a if you can send lossless audio, if you can send multi-channel lossless audio from any place in the world uh to another place in the world, it means that like, you know, if someone's house catches fire in Southern California and you have to go live in Vancouver for the year or for a couple years while your house is being rebuilt, you could you could stream the lossless audio of an immersive mix to Warner Brothers in LA while you're not even living there, while you're not even there, and people can hear the exact mix. Um you could do remote signal processing, there are lots of things. So what I wanted to do was I wanted to get professors to start using audio movers in their advanced record and advanced mix curriculums. Um and I bribed them by saying if you had a project that you did, let's say the school in New York with the school in Medellin, Columbia, or the school in LA with the school in uh in uh Copenhagen, uh I would invite you uh to give a presentation about that at Abbey Road Studios. Now it owns audio movers, and so uh we had a special day at Abbey Road.

Joey Stuckey 48:34

Uh I would give my left arm to be there. I mean that that's that's one of the mechas for me. Well, we'll see if we can get you there. Okay. I listen, I'll I'll be I'll stand in the corner and be a microphone stay at whatever you need.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Well, I you know what? I figured educators would be would be very motivated to get to Abbey Road. I remember uh being in London with and standing outside of Abbey Road with Mrs. Crivet and thinking, man, I wish I was important enough that they would let me in this place.

Joey Stuckey 49:03

I have thought those same thoughts, my friend.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

But I didn't know anybody. And so I started working with audio movers and audio movers. Um, and I also work with Abbey Road Institute. Yeah, yeah. Uh I kind of know that some educators would be motivated by that. And um so I figured that that would be a great way of getting them to do these projects and to put it's absolutely brilliant.

Joey Stuckey 49:31

It's absolutely brilliant. And I I want to ask you just real, real quick, and we'll move, we'll move on to the last thing I want to ask you. But uh with with the audio movers, like is there a limitation to how many channels and to how many studios can be online together at the same time? Because that's a real interesting thing.

SPEAKER_00 49:50

Uh let's just say that it is uh getting the limits are are uh getting higher. Higher, lower, meaning, meaning the every it seems like every couple of months you can do a lot more. It's pretty impressive. Uh you know, it it it you know, this is an example. I think most importantly, it's an example of how we can how educators can use technology to make students more relevant, to make studios more relevant. Absolutely. You don't have to live in the town. Joey, you might have in your studio some incredible one-of-a-kind piece of hardware uh that I might want to send my tracks through. Right. Uh, and I could do that. Uh I could do that using audio movers. So if professors are teaching this technology or incorporating it into uh curriculums and and uh students have to do these assignments, uh, they're more likely, you know, this is something that could generate income for a studio that might want to hire the student. So I'm just thinking, how does this make audio education better? Uh and and how do we fit the next generation of of audio engineers into our community?

Joey Stuckey 51:25

Well, that leads me to my perfect ending question for you. And uh uh I I you know, full disclosure, I asked this of everybody. Um and and I I'm real curious about your thoughts on artificial intelligence. And as you well know, um having having studied audio and its history, we have said the sky was falling and the music industry was going to die many, many times. We've said it when Napster came out, we said it with the birth of the phonograph, we said it with the player piano role. Uh so so you know, I I don't think the world's over. But what do you what do you think about AI in in audio and then also its role in education?

SPEAKER_00 52:07

Uh that's a great question. Um I think well, I'll tell you that, you know, I work for a number of different companies as a consultant. Uh one company uses machine learning and artificial intelligence um to create assistive technology so that blind people can use their signal processors. Right. I don't know, Joey. What do you think? Is that I think I like that too. I like it. Yeah. Um I don't see how anybody could be against that. Another company uh uses artificial intelligence for stem separation so that we can take a an old mono Edith Piaf recording and we can extricate the vocal track from the piano, from the drums, from the guitar, from the bass. Uh that gives us lots of different possibilities. Maybe we want to re we want to make a new version of this using using Edith Piaf's voice for a movie. Uh so there are there are technical things that we can do using that. Uh another company that I I I just stopped working with uh uses artificial intelligence to create a an AI vocal instrument. So instead of singing the vocal, you could play it in with a MIDI keyboard and then select uh a voice and um you could you could uh select a voice and uh that you know of someone who is paid, um and uh you type in the lyrics syllable by syllable in either English, Japanese, uh Spanish, Korean, Mandarin, or Cantonese, uh and then you use AI to uh manipulate it. Uh and that's fascinating. I don't know, is it evil? Is it helpful? Uh it reminds me a little of uh 1982. I'm in my dormitory room at the University of Michigan, and someone left a drum machine with me, and I thought, well, I'm not gonna record with this thing, uh, but maybe I could use it for counting measures or charting out a song or making a demo and showing the drummer and the bass player where the backbeat is. Uh, kind of interesting technology. Um I don't know how I feel about generative technology. Uh, a song, if we said, hey, write a song about Joey Stuckey and make it a reggae song, I'm not certain I want to listen to that song. I don't know if I'd want to read a novel that was written by a computer using generative software. Um, but you know, I think about all the times that people, like you were saying, all the times that people were uh resisting technology. Uh in the 70s, uh the musicians union said no um, they said uh no synthesizers in the orchestra pit. It takes away uh the potential job from a clarinetist or a or a string player. Uh in the 80s, we were resisting drum machines until people like Prince uh made it part of music and hip-hop folks made it part of the paradigm. Uh you know, we resisted things like uh pitch correction software. People said, hey, if you can't sing, then get the hell out of here. You know, if we think about it, we've only been recording music for about 150 years. We've only been sort of distributing recorded music for maybe a hundred years. And uh I think it will evolve. If that that might be a good thing, that might be a bad thing. Think about uh think about the advent of photography. What did the portrait painters and the landscape painters have to say when all of a sudden there was a a machine that could capture the image? Uh they said it was stupid, it wasn't the same thing as a as a as a painter. Um and probably the same arguments that we're having now about artificial intelligence. So again, generative AI, that could be problematic, but but uh there's lots that we can use uh AI for that I don't know, might be helpful, might be evil. Uh see how this podcast ages. Maybe I'll maybe someone will listen to it and murder me because that's the time.

Joey Stuckey 57:23

Well, you know, I have to say, I mean, I I I think you're on point here. I mean, there any technology, any philosophy, I suppose, could could be go one way or the other, um, you know, good or bad. But I do feel the same way you do. I mean, I I feel like um, you know, I'm not real keen to have a computer writing songs. Um I yes, I'm not I'm not interested in that. I don't I don't find it of value. I think one of our guests, Michael Beinhorn, said something fairly profound, which was that um he felt like that you know gerative AI music would not be a long-term thing because the computer had nothing to tell you because it never lived. Uh I think I think there's some wisdom there. Um, you know, I'm a humanist, uh unapologetically. I want AI to do certain things like be my eyes. I think that's fantastic. Uh writing songs, not not as keen on that. So stay in its lane. But I think the big thing for me is just uh, you know, I think we need some some guardrails, uh which currently we there are really none. And um I I say that, you know, as as someone who works with recording academy as a governor on the board of the Atlanta chapter, who, you know, we we advocate for for for certain things. So, you know, we're aware of of um of you know trying to protect creative rights and things of that nature. And there's really not, there's mostly very piecemeal legislation uh at states, but there's not really anything comprehensive federally at the moment. Um so you know, there's some problems with that. And then and then of course, uh I'm being a bookworm, uh I'm I'm all about the three walls of robotics as put forth by Isaac Asimov. So I don't want my toaster to murder me in the night.

SPEAKER_00 59:07

Well, I think Joey, I think what what's gonna happen is um, you know, I've got this friend, uh Josh Rogeson, who records all of the tiny deaths about you know, 800 of them over 10 years to over a billion viewers. And and I think what Josh does, Josh likes to think of himself as a journalist. He's chronicling this, he's not doing overdubs, he's not even preparing monitors for the for the musicians. They just get up there and play and he chronicles it. He does this something now called uh global sound concerts. And I think what Josh does is going to be highlighted and appreciated because people are going to want. I don't I think people are gonna even not be that interested in overdubs. I think that just a live performance is gonna become that much more important and documentation that it's actually real musicians playing real live songs um with no studio magic, just kind of it's there. I think that that's going to be more and more popular. That's gonna find an audience.

Joey Stuckey 1:00:28

So I could not agree more because I have over the years of sort of going that direction.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:36

Lots of things happen because of this.

Joey Stuckey 1:00:39

Yeah, I I think so. I I really do. It seems, and and and I will I will let you go after this, but I want to get your take on this. From my limited sort of perspective, um uh it it seems that there is a growing desire to move away from from the utility model or or or the subscription model of licensing everything and not owning anything. Um and and that people are starting to value once again the ability to have a boutique experience of a 96k Blu-ray in their home sound system, or conversely, a piece of vinyl on a turntable. Um and what did are you seeing that too? I mean, because I I've seen, you know, in a limited way, I've seen sort of the you know, the Gen Z guys kind of start to say, hey, wait a minute, we don't really own anything. We're you know, we're paying all this money.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:36

Well, you know, at five o'clock today, uh my daughter's boyfriend's brother is gonna come and uh take a look at all my records, and I think he wants to buy them from me. And um, I'm just gonna probably just give them to him. Um and you know, it's all uh material things are all transitory anyway. Oh yeah. Uh you know, uh the piece of software that you bought uh doesn't doesn't work anymore. Yeah. This new operating system. So that's you know, even if you have a perpetual license, you still have to upgrade it and what you get forced into upgrading, yeah. At some point you're gonna have to. And and and you know, that's part of keeping up with technology. So so uh a record, I guess, will always play. Uh a CD, I don't know, a digital file, maybe. I you know, it it's it's it's all changing uh and I think the goal is to not lose anything. You know, hopefully we we hang on to important stuff and important recordings and important photographs and and um you know whether we pay by the month or we pay once, a bigger fee. I don't know. It's it's what what is your favorite format to listen to, John? Uh my favorite format I think to listen to is live. Nice. That's a wonderful answer. I love it. I love it. Well, you know, or uh uh I uh I I have a um I always keep a ukulele in the car. So uh I'm always happy to hand it to someone and say, play a song for me.

Joey Stuckey 1:03:29

Be careful, that might put you on some kind of list.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:31

Uh probably will, yeah. Well, uh if the passenger is playing, it's not so bad. I do that with kids a lot. I'll I'll uh that's that's okay.

Joey Stuckey 1:03:39

And how many ukuleles do you have, John? Are you are you you got a big collection?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:43

Uh I wouldn't say collection. I would just say uh you I'd at least like to have one anywhere I am.

Joey Stuckey 1:03:52

That's all I can say is George Harrison was a big fan of keeping them in his trunk as well. And he just, you know, he was always tootling around with ukuleles. I I bought one when I was on tour in Hawaii back in 2004. That was my big souvenir. And I told him, I said, I I don't want to know prices, I just want to play these and pick the one I want. And and so I picked out two. It was at the factory itself where they've been assembled. And the first one was $350 made of like coa wood from the island. And the other one that I picked, sadly, was almost a thousand dollars. Like, if I I take this away because I'm not good enough at this thing to to justify this beautiful instrument. But anyway, they are fun. They are fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:29

Well, I I I like the cheaper the better. I I like to go to the I live by the ocean and I like going to the beach and getting some salt on it. Uh sitting, yeah. So if it if it gets a little messed up, that's okay. At least you always have something. If you've got an idea, you can you can play. If you if you want to uh sing your favorite song, uh you can do that. If you want to perform for someone, you can do that. It's it's just a great thing to have.

Joey Stuckey 1:04:58

So uh I let me uh I'll tell you another great thing to have is John Crivet as a friend and mentor. And I appreciate you. Appreciate you so much. And um, you have always been such wise counsel uh and and uh and so thoughtful and and also just very kind. And that's that's a beautiful thing. I appreciate you, my friend.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:17

Well, Joey, I've I've treasure our friendship. You've you've been such a great guy and such a great friend, and um I w was disappointed that we did not get you down to Mexico for the Pan American Audio Educators Conference. We were heartbroken. Um, but we will keep working on you, and uh uh I really want you to be back there uh next year, next April. Uh I will be there, my friend. I think you would have a great time. You would meet professors uh and important audio people from all over Latin America. And it's amazing, yeah. Uh my goal is that you know the professor from Macon, Georgia gets invited to Montevideo, and the professor from Buenos Aires gets invited to Monterey, and the professor from Indiana gets invited to uh Jalisco, and uh I'm just trying to internationalize everybody and uh build bridges instead of walls.

Joey Stuckey 1:06:25

Absolutely, my brother. A perfect way to end our podcast today bridges instead of walls. I love it. Thank you, John Craven, and thanks for everybody for tuning in to Stuck on Sound. You can catch all the podcasts uh on demand at www.stuckonsound.com.