Joey Stuckey 0:00

Welcome once again to Stuck on Sound. And man, oh man. I I am so excited about our guest today because uh and and this is this is no exaggeration, and and at least as far as I know, no money has changed hands. Uh he is absolutely a genius level uh fellow. And this is Gary Gottlieb. He is absolutely one of the coolest people you've ever talked to, and we get to chat with him for a while. Gary, thanks for being on the show, my friend.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Well, thank you, Joey, and it is my pleasure and my honor to be uh talking with you today.

Joey Stuckey 0:34

Well, this is you know, this is uh uh something I've been in media for a long time since I was in my twenties, and I've done TV shows and radio shows and you know, anything to keep me uh busy. But um this podcast is really near and dear to my heart, and we've been wanting to do it for a while, and all of a sudden uh things just happened and it started. And the reason that that I want to do it is I I want to have amazing people like yourselves, uh like yourself, not only to celebrate how cool you are, but I really am interested in, you know, giving back to the music community uh thoughts and ideas and inspirations. And through our conversations of the podcast, I really feel like you know, you you come away with one or two really interesting tidbits. So I cannot wait to see what what kind of uh cool thing that I never thought of you're gonna you're gonna tell me today.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Um you I don't know what kind of new ground I'll be breaking, but I am I am all about giving back. It's gonna happen. I can feel I mean that's it to me, that's what this point in my career is for, is to give back as much as I can.

Joey Stuckey 1:34

Well, and let me tell you, you do, and and and let me say this, uh you and I mean this in like you know the coolest way possible. Like you would have to be a thousand years old to like do all the amazing stuff you have done. Like, I just if when I read your bio, it just it just blew my mind. I was like, oh my god, how do you have time to do all of this?

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Well, well, you you you know, you you're you've actually revealed my biggest secret. I really am a thousand years old. When I started recording, we were using chisels and stone.

Joey Stuckey 2:07

I love it. I love it. Well, you know, I I want to talk about, I mean, we've got so many interesting things to talk about when when it comes to you and your philosophy and the things you've done. But the first thing I want to know is how did you turn up, you know, in this business? What is your origin story? How did music call you to its service?

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Well, like most uh engineers and producers, I was a musician and I played uh in high school in bands. Um the truth be told, I was not a great musician. I was a drummer, and I was good enough for high school bands. Uh but uh moving forward, I started realizing how I that wasn't really a career path for me uh because I just wasn't good enough. I have a cousin who's a studio drummer, Barry Lazarowitz, and he took me to see Billy Cobb. And I'm sitting there and I'm saying, I I think I know what he's doing, but how can he do it? There must be another drummer or he has two extra hands or something, because there's more going on than could possibly. And it was actually at that concert that I decided that was not the best path for me. But because my cousin was a studio drummer, he would occasionally take me to a session. And when I would go into these great sessions in studios in New York, like AR, you know, I'd sit in the back of the room. I mean, I was a kid, I was a young teenager at the time. Uh, everyone else was focused on the musicians, and I was focused on the engineer. I was watching what the engineer was doing and saying, Oh, I see he just turned something there, and I hear the vocals just got a little brighter, or something cleaned up somewhere in the bottom. And I didn't know how to explain what I was hearing, but I certainly heard it. And when I talked to my cousin afterwards, he said, Well, have you thought about you know becoming an engineer? So um, so my path in was that. And then, of course, in those days, this was in the early 80s. So the path was you made up a resume with whatever you'd done. I had wired a nightclub and I'd recorded some friends, and of course I did sound for all the bands I was in. Um, and I knocked on the doors of about a hundred studios in New York because at that time you could do that. There were a hundred studios whose doors you could knock on. Yeah. And one of them uh Counterpoint, uh I got a job uh making coffee, taking out the garbage. And uh so that was really how I started in the business. And just to add to that story, I got very lucky because um we had just we in my first few months there, uh Jerry Ragavoy, the owner of Counterpoint, bought a couple of uh SSL 6000 E's. And they were very new at the time. The SSL computer was very new at the time. Very few people knew how to use it. So um I spent about, you know, six or eight weeks maybe uh crimping wires and pulling wires through underneath the risers and doing everything that needed to be done to install these two consoles. And when it was done and we had the first uh session coming in, um I asked the studio manager, I said, Hey, do you mind if I take the manuals home? Because I know how to pass signal on this thing. I think I can probably learn a little more in depth and it would be handy for this session. And the manager said, Oh, is there is there a manual? And I took that as a yes. So I took, and there were actually two manuals, because there was one for the console and a separate one for the computer. So I read both of these. I came back in and I was one of the only people in New York who knew how to use the SSL computer at that time.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

So I started getting a lot of work helping out other engineers who had complicated mixes and um, you know, didn't know how to use the computer where I would just run the computer for them. And it's really in in today's terms, it was a very simple computer, but this was the early 80s. Nobody had home computers yet. Uh no, I I had taken one computer class in college, so I probably knew more about computers than most people in those days.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

And um, so I got a reputation as being a great mixer because I was, you know, involved in all these great mix sessions sessions. So I started getting calls. Now, in the evenings, every night, I would put up tapes at Counterpoint and practice my mixing. So I did have the skills to back it up when I started getting these calls, but it was just this sort of lucky little quirk that I started getting this reputation as being a great mixer and before I'd ever actually mixed anything. So I was very lucky.

Joey Stuckey 6:40

I I love I love this because one of the things that I like to tell like you know, clients and students and you know, anyone that will listen is you know, be ready. Uh because you will find a moment where there's an opportunity that comes your way, and and you may only get one shot. And so, like, you know, be ready, have all your ducks in a row, go ahead and assume you're gonna be successful and prepare for that because you know, and you found, and and this is you know, sometimes it happens by accident, but you you found a niche situation and and became an expert, and then when you were ready when when that became of value, and then you were able to take that moment and and translate it into something profound. I love it, I think that's great.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Yeah, and I've told this story to some people, and I've pointed out, well, you know, I was very lucky, and some people said, well, you made your own luck by doing manuals and reading them. And there's an element of truth to that. Uh I I I tell students all the time, you know, exactly what you were saying, you have to be prepared, you have to get your skills, but there's also some point where you're gonna need some sliver of luck to get to get the be in the right place at the right time. Something happens, an engineer doesn't show up, and you sit down in the seat and you do a great job, whatever it is, you have to be prepared for it. But then you need that little bit of luck too. And and I definitely had that luck. I was, you know, that's what launched my career in New York.

Joey Stuckey 8:10

Well, and and so I mean, I think that you also hit onto something else. And I want to I want to ask you how you feel about this, because um, in today's world, we are so interconnected. We have uh we have FedEx, we have uh airplanes, and we have the internet. Um, so you know, it used to be that you really did have to live in a place where things were happening to be where the things were happening so you could get that opportunity. Do you think that's still true today, or what's your thoughts on on where you should be?

SPEAKER_00 8:39

I still tell students that, you know, when they ask me about internships or where they want to look for their first job, my first question to them is, well, where do you want to live? Where do you want to be? I think there's a lot to that. I think that situating oneself, you know, in Nashville or in LA opens up a lot of opportunity. At the time when I did it, the fact that I was in New York was a huge factor in my career. And uh, you know, and very fortunate for me. And I would tell people even, you know, even these days, go to a recording center, go to a place where there's a lot of music happening. And these days, it doesn't have to be LA or Nashville. It could be it could be Portland or Seattle, or it could be Austin. You know, there are music scenes everywhere. So my question to students is where do you want to live? Because, you know, ultimately there are two different sides to this business, as we all know. The business when I started was a room full of people in a multi-million dollar uh, you know, uh studio. Uh now, um, I mean, this computer that's in front of me right now, I can mix a song on it and do it just as professionally as I used to do on an SSL or an Eve. So, you know, the business has changed so much, but you need that human connection also. And if you are in one of those recording centers, whether it's one of the larger ones or one of the secondary markets, I think you have a better chance of still working with other people, which which only helps in the long run. Because we learn so much from working with other people. And projects are better when they're when they're done, you know, with input from from multiple people rather than just one person's vision.

Joey Stuckey 10:20

Yeah, I think that's really true. I I I I you know I I love this business because I am I have the temperament of an artist in the sense that uh I believe in the value of art and what it does for society. I I believe in the value of uh pushing new ideas, recording the you know the past as a historian. I mean, I think that the artist, the function of the artist is very, very integral to any kind of society that does well and is healthy. Uh I also uh have the temperament of a scientist. I like I like math, I like I like to understand processes, I like to understand, you know, uh all the different uh sort of scientific principles that go into making a good recording. So I love that dual nature um, you know, of the of the business. But what I will say is that, you know, I really do feel, uh, and there's it's not just a feeling, it's you know something that I can, you know, that I can prove um is that when you get a group of talented people together in the same room, um when you get a group of talented people in the same room, it it's just really something special happens. There's this there's this feedback that that happens, and uh it it it just is incredible. I mean, and you you can do amazing things remotely. I'm not saying you can't, but there's just the the collaborative nature of a bunch of talented people in the same room is just something that that I think is really special. And uh I think because of that, you know, there will always be some need for the bigger studio spaces.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

Um I agree. And I think you hit on a couple of important points there. Um, first off, yes, the energy that you create by having a band play together rather than drummer comes in Monday, bass player Tuesday, guitar player Wednesday, the way uh it's done, you know, it's done quite a bit these days. The the sessions that I've done in the last 10 years, I've insisted that people play together. Oh, that's nice section to play together. I'll, you know, I go to their rehearsals, I go to their live gigs, I I help them figure out what the best tunes are for them to do. And then um, when we get in the studio, we have a real plan. And you know, in some ways, some of these bands get very frightened, they get scared. There's like, oh my God, we're gonna play together in the studio. It's like, yeah, we'll do that live. You can't rehearse the studio. Why wouldn't you do that in the studio? And by the way, you sound a lot better. I've heard your demos, you sound a lot better in a live game than we do on these demos. And one of the reasons is that you played separately on the demos. I can tell. When we get in the studio, you know, you're gonna play together and we're gonna get that energy. You're gonna be making eye contact with each other just like you do on stage. Everything's gonna be uh to a whole nother level, to a higher level, because of that. And the other thing you mentioned that I really love is the way what we do as engineers in particular, is we join the artistic and the technical sides. So we have to understand the physics of acoustics, we have to understand how electricity runs through circuits, we need to understand all these things in order to do what we do, but we also have to understand the artistic side, because if we don't have both the technical knowledge and the aesthetic knowledge, and if, you know, if we're not combining those two, then we're failing at our job. In fact, the first textbook that I wrote, which had to be 25 years ago now, I titled it Shaping Sound in the Studio and Beyond, but the subtitle was Audio Aesthetics and Technology. And that was also the name of my master's degree, was my degree was in audio aesthetics and technology, the theory being you can't have one without the other. This is a way oversimplification, but the two of them work together. And I love that because uh just like you, I have that love of science. I've always loved physics, uh, I've always loved science, and I always have loved music and art. So, you know, the combination of the two just makes sense to me.

Joey Stuckey 14:28

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that. And you know, uh something that uh that I want to drill down on uh here. Now you um have uh you have produced many a record. Uh you have uh you have taught many classes, and you have uh, if I recall correctly, three books um that are out, and I I definitely want people to to grab those. But one of them in particular um interests me, and uh uh because of of sort of my basic philosophy, and that is and I may be getting the title wrong, so you you can you can uh you can uh correct me, please. But it has like how does it sound now? Is that the is that the right okay? So what's exciting about this book is uh it it is stories from uh many different you know people that you have gathered, and talking about uh sort of like, you know, the like I I guess for lack of a better word, like you know, the sort of uh kind of gear that you want. If it's like is it better because it's analog kind of thing? And and this is uh the quickest way to start a brawl at any audio conference is to say analog versus digital, or ask someone what the better uh bit depth and sample rate is, or God forbid you ask their favorite microphone. So you you know, whenever that happens, I always hide uh behind the closest person on the panel with me. Because as a blind man, I'm not gonna see the tomatoes coming. I just, you know, I gotta I gotta hide.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

So you know that's smart because yeah, it's it's well, you know, we love arguing. And we do, we do. And and you get 10 engineers together and ask what the best compressor is for. And you're gonna get 10 different, you're gonna have 15 different answers from 10 engineers. Yes, that's right, because some people are gonna tell you two or three things. But you know I'll say, well, you know, in LA2A, unless the voice is like this, and then I want my 1176. Absolutely.

Joey Stuckey 16:32

I I literally just had that discussion yesterday on Facebook. Um the the but but I mean, tell me, so here's the thing for me I am uh an analog boy, uh you know, and and the reason for that uh is twofold. First, as a blind person, in all honesty, even with the wonderful strides we've made in accessible technology on the computer, uh it is easier for me to use analog gear because once I memorize it, I'm done. And I can, you know, uh the third knob for the left always does the same thing. You know, so I like that. That's that's good for me. But as it turns out, I just dig the vibe of the stuff. Like I just I just like the you know, I just like the vibe of you know uh 1083, you know. I just I I dig it, you know, and it and it and and and at the end of the day, I mean what it really is about, and I think you'd probably agree with this is what gets you to the sound you want the fastest. Like, you know, so if it's a plug-in, I'll use the plug-in, assuming it's it's accessible, which you know it may or may not be. That's a whole other conversation. But what is your thought on the whole analog situation? And tell me how your what what your book and what writing that book revealed to you.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

So just to start out, uh what I'll say is my the reasoning for me writing the book, and I don't want this to sound morbid or anything, but um I I love my mentors and I love and respect their mentors and their mentors. So you look at somebody like Tom Dowd, and he mentored people like Phil Ramone, who mentored people like Elliot Shiner. And what did I learn as an engineer in New York from some derivative of that, some way of that feeding down through the system? Um, and the real impetus when I decided to write that book was that Tom Dowd had passed away. And I said to myself, you know, there are questions that my students would want to ask him. And I don't have that opportunity now. So maybe I better go around and interview some of these engineers who are getting on in years and get their thoughts down. Um, again, I don't want to sound morbid about this, but I was so grateful that I did because I just did the second edition of that book uh almost 20 years after the first edition, and about half of the people I'd interviewed have passed away. So I'm so glad that I got the opportunity to get their thoughts down on paper. And a lot of what we talked about, you know, I had a set list of questions for every one of them, but I also allowed them to talk about whatever they wanted to. And I did it more like an oral history where I removed myself from the conversation and just made it like a conversation from each of these great engineers. And I interviewed 32 different uh engineers and producers. Uh, a lot of the questions were about the different transitions that they'd seen in the business and how they retained quality going from one format to another format. I even had one in one uh person I interviewed, uh Marco Bohr, started uh uh recording um uh orchestral concerts in Europe uh right after World War II, and he started recording on wire recorders. That was what the technology was at that time. So he not only saw the transitions that we're talking about, like from analog to digital to workstations, everything else, he made the transition from wire to tape. And it's incredible. It was just so eye-opening to me to hear all these different people's insights into what it was like. And even though I didn't specifically ask about quality, every one of those interviews eventually talked about quality because that's really what we're all invested in. And this goes to your question of you know, really what is it that that we're looking for? What is it that that that makes something work? You know, how do we retain that quality going from you know one form to another form to another form? So, of course, we love talking about the gear. And of course, I asked questions about gear because people love talking about it, but that generated other questions or other answers, I should say, that were really interesting about all the transitions in the business and how you know how different people use different recording techniques, and of course, the stories, because we all love to tell stories about this session with this artist or that session. So it really was a very interesting project for me. It took me about a year to get all those initial interviews done. Uh, I interviewed uh some of the great Nashville engineers. I went to Chicago, of course, New York, LA, San Francisco, and uh I mean, I was just so happy with you know, with not just, you know, not just the interviews, but the people and how how willing they were to share all their knowledge, because that's something that goes back to a longtime thing with with AES in my uh original introduction to AES, where I was a I was a nothing kid making making the coffee, taking out the garbage. And I went to my first AES show. And here are all these people willing to share their knowledge with me. And you know, I I saw Phil Ramon walking by at one point, and I went, Oh, it's in his picture in in some magazine or something, in Mixed Magazine, I think it must have been. And and somebody is next to me and says, Oh, go say hi. And you say, Wait, wait, really? Are you kidding? And it's no, no, come on and introduce me to Phil. And we chatted, and George Massenberg walked. And he joined the conversation. It's like, oh my God, here I am, this like nothing kid, and that's just starting out in the business. And these people are just sharing all these insights with me and chatting with me like we're old friends. So that camaraderie and that sharing of knowledge really helped shape a lot of my career and has helped bring me to where I am now, where now I'm in the position where I want to share my knowledge. Not that I'm a Phil Ramone or an Al Schmidt or any of these amazing people that I interviewed. But at the same time, I I have knowledge to share and I'm happy to do it. And uh I think I've gotten off on a tangent here, Joey.

Joey Stuckey 22:40

No, no, listen, we love rabbit holes in the show. We love rabbit holes. I mean, I will tell you, um, I I'm glad you mentioned AES because it was a real wonderful thing for me to get involved with as well. And uh as a younger person in the industry, uh, as a blind person, you know, uh traveling is is uh difficult. There was no Uber, you know, uh back in the day uh when I was in my 20s. And and so, you know, but as I got older, and you know, I got married and then I was able to uh uh uh have employees that work at my studio and stuff like that, you know, the transportation thing uh has become uh more uh uh under my control. And I started participating with AES around 2017 and the um something like that. And and and the the camaraderie, the the information, the the joy of the conferences and the I mean the smartest people in the world are in these rooms. I mean, it's incredible. And I you know, people like Jack Douglas, who recently passed, um you know, spent spent you know, half an hour with me, didn't know me at all, uh was glad to visit, you know, uh uh Masenberg same way, you know, and just just you know, uh very, very, very, very kind and and and all that kind of stuff. And then of course I met um, I'm I'm sure he's a dear friend of yours as he is mine, John Crivet. Uh, and uh learned a million things from John. And basically I've the the the philosophy I've adopted with John is uh whatever he says to do, I just do that. And he's he's been a real mentor to me.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

But anyway, John I call John the mayor of AES.

Joey Stuckey 24:21

I agree. I I think of him as a I call him the great connector. Uh but but really, I mean, you know, it what I I say all that to say that anyone listening to this podcast uh really should join AES. I mean, it really is uh an important organization, uh one that really does open doors both in knowledge and in opportunity. And uh I think that's uh I think that's really incredible. That's how I know you. So I mean, you know, it's you know I think that's that's that's wonderful. And and with with the book, I mean, you know, what did you find was I mean, obviously I want people to go read the book, uh, but but but uh sort of uh snapshot, what did you find the overarching sort of like consensus to be about uh the industry and and what it meant and and and uh and and you know what what what was what was kind of the general consensus about about the the the the world that we live in? I mean yeah I'm I'm just curious what you know what everybody kind of thought.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Well it's interesting because you know in a way it dates back to the way AES started. There's a lot of connection with that. Um so it you know I I don't know how much you know the people who are listening to this know of that story, but you know, there was uh right after World War II in the in the late 40s, there were all these companies that were working in audio on one level or another. There were record companies, uh there was DECA, there was, you know, Victor, there was RCA, which were two separate companies at that time, there were broadcast companies like NBC and CVS, and all of their bosses and all of the audio departments, their bosses all told them, don't talk to anyone else working in audio. What we do is is a secret. We don't want to share this information. And so all these guys nodded their heads and said, okay. And then they met uh at least once a month, they would meet for dinner and they would share all of their findings. So they knew that it really helped each other and that the business would be stronger and better if we all shared uh, you know, all of our knowledge. And these were people with names like like like Pickering and and uh you know, you know, people who, you know, if you if you do do turntables at all, you've seen their names. If you've you know amplifiers, you've seen their names, all of these amazing, genius level people. And they're meeting and they're you know, they're sharing their ideas so that one says, well, you know, we found this, and then the other one says, Oh, well, I found this other thing, which was kind of similar. And by combining both of those, they both go back to work with a stronger idea. So it was that camaraderie and that sharing of ideas, which is what started AES back in the 40s. And to me, that's exactly what I found when I went to my first AES show in '82, and that I still I consistently consistently see it there. It's the sharing of ideas, it's the understanding that the camaraderie and the doing things together and all of that is is really what makes us all stronger.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

So, you know, that to me carried right through. Um some of the engineers that I uh that I interviewed, I knew from my time in New York. Uh, other ones I just had met through um through AES also. And the overarching, you know, going back to your question about the overarching theme was definitely quality, uh, because ultimately, you know, what we all want to do is make a great recording at the end of the day. You know, whatever techniques we use to get there, whatever technology we use, whatever experience we have or we lack that we make up for in whatever way, ultimately we want to make a great recording. And this was the consistent thing in all of those interviews. Uh and and, you know, of course, I'm listening to this and going to myself, yeah, me too. This is what this is what I've been doing for all these years. You know, it's trying to do quality, trying to make an amazing recording. Walk into the room, do the you know, the Phil Ramon thing of walk into the room, listen to it, go into the control room, make sure it sounds the same in there, and you know, really capture the performance. Um, you know, these things are universal uh with everyone I interviewed, and I'm sure with the the hundreds of other amazing engineers who I didn't get to interview. Um, you know, we we all we're all invested in the in quality.

Joey Stuckey 28:50

I think that's such a a beautiful way of of encapsulating you know what we do. And and um, you know, there's I'm sure you've had the same experience. I have made good sounding records with absolutely inferior equipment. I mean, you know, just just you know, um uh what what do you think? I mean, so we're we're all we're all different. Everybody's different.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Please do before you go any further. Yeah, yeah. So um I actually was was just at a fellow engineer's uh uh house last night for uh for a couple of beers, and we were hanging out and we were talking about a few different things we got on this same topic, and I was telling him the story of Jeff Emmerich uh recording uh Band on the Run. So uh they went to Montserrat for that, and uh the studio was not in great shape, and they were very limited. Yeah, half the modules on the console didn't work and all this. Anyway, um the Jeff asks, you know, well, what kind of microphones you have? And he expects to be led to a microphone cabinet. Instead, he's handed a shoebox. Oh my god. Four or five microphones, three of which he can't even identify. And somehow he made a really great sounding album. And and that to me, that defines a lot of what we do because it's really not about the gear. We love gear, we love talking about gear and buying gear and using gear, but that's not what it's about. It's about us. Yeah, it's about our ears, it's it's about what we hear and how we how we make that right. So, anyway, sorry to take you off on that one.

Joey Stuckey 30:24

But it's such a good point, you know, and and I mean uh I just I I know I guess my this comes from most of my uh perspective on life um comes from the fact that I am a uh blind brain tumor survivor who almost died a bunch as a child and had to spend a lot of time sick in the hospital. And so I have a certain uh mental aesthetic. And and two of my primary uh sort of tenets, if you will, the things that I live by. Uh the first one is uh that um I am a professional and while I have preferences, I will take whatever you give me and I will make it work and get the job done. Um that's that's number one. Uh and then number two is joy is a choice, and we are going to be happy even on bad days, uh, you know, because we are grateful to be making music. Like this is a a privilege. And um, and that's that's you know, that's the other thing. You know, so I I I believe in that. And uh I I I really believe in what you said, which is it's all about the the person. You know, it's when when you know what it's I I mean I can I can pick from you know 20 different microphones to do a job and and I and I will. I'll have I'll have a preference based on some sound reasoning. But I mean it's also the hands of the guitar player, uh the way that they connect to the instrument and what they bring out of it, and you know, all these other things. And so that human that human thing and that that experience, that that translation, that uh really I guess I should say transmission of spirit uh is like the thing that we're really trying to capture. And you know, I tell my students and and interns and all these guys, like, look, you know, I have technical preferences that will give me what I want with the sound, but we are dealing with artists who may or may not be well trained or may or may not uh know a lot about what what they're doing, but but we're trying to capture the spiritual content. So we will adjust our microphone placement and all these other things to make them comfortable, even if it's not what I want, because really what we gotta do is capture who they are. And if they're not comfortable, we can't do that. So, like, you know, I will sacrifice the the technical element if I have to. I don't like it, you understand? So in the back of my mind, I'm like, oh you know, but but but in reality, I was like, look, I this is where I want the microphone, but but this guy doesn't like it there. The drummer keeps hitting it with a drumstick, you know, whatever. I'm gonna move it so it's where he's comfortable and we'll just make it work. But all that being said, yeah, uh, what is the thing that allows you to make the records you want uh the fastest? Do you prefer analog tape? Do you prefer, I mean, what what what kind of tools do you like to have on board?

SPEAKER_00 33:39

So I'm very flexible on things. This this goes to what, you know, I uh during the interviews, there were at least two of the great um Nashville engineers who, when I asked a question similar to this, said, whatever gear is in front of me. Yeah. And it's very consistent with Jeff's uh Emmerich's story too, and about uh Band on the Run. Um, I I was a freelancer for most of my career. And so I didn't know what I was going to be working with. So, you know, what kind of console do you have? And if they said NiV or SSL or Trident, I said, great, lots of experience. I walk into one studio and they say, Yeah, we have a tangent. And I said, I haven't heard that one. Me neither. But but it worked. It passed signal, and I looked at it and was able to figure out where everything was. And I had an assistant who knew don't use this module for vocals. This one's a little noisy, you know. So having a great assistant makes a world is a world of difference as a freelancer because they know the room. Uh, you know, I might know what I'm looking for, but they know the room. When it comes down to my own expectations, I love it when when my expectations get get thrown out the window. Um, I have gone into studios and recorded singers, and we said, well, let's put up a few different mics and see what sounds good, and let's use that that you know, tube 47, and we'll throw up an 87. We'll, you know, and I always ask the singer, I said, Well, you know, is there a particular microphone you're used to using? And a lot of times they'll say, sure, SM58. And I'll say, okay, I'll put up this $90 mic next to these $12,000 to $15,000 mics. And yeah, sure, we're good. We'll try them all. And I love it when they go and they sing it to all four or five mics, and I listen to it and I go, oh, this singer sounds best on the 58. God damn, okay. That's what we're gonna use. And and and it it totally throws my plan out the window of like, oh, I'm so glad they have great mics at this studio. It's like, okay, forget the great mics. We're gonna use the mic that sounds best on our.

Joey Stuckey 35:44

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

Um, so I I love having my expectations thrown out the window. As far as what I like to use, I mean, you know, I grew up in this business using an SSL and a Studer 880 and um, you know, uh Ampex 456. And I there's still a a wonderful place in my heart for all of that, even though I don't get to do to use a combination like that all that often anymore. Um, but I I do love the fact that, you know, that those things are available. I love that that's my memory and my cherished, like, this is my happy place to be. Right. And at the same time, you know, I I've always been flexible. Uh, that's been one of my strengths as an engineer and as a freelancer. And it's something that I developed a reputation for very early on, that I was really flexible. I could roll with anything, whatever you throw at me will make it work. And that's of course a great reputation to have. The other reputation I developed, which was an even better reputation to have, was that I was good at dealing with clients who are a pain in the ass. And yeah, there is no shortage of clients who are a pain in the cool. I mean, I did I did albums with this one uh uh uh uh Maestro Laszlo uh Hollis. He had started the New York City Opera Company in the, I think it was in the 30s. And by the time I worked with him, he he had to be in his 80s and nobody wanted to work with him. Anyway, I should mention he started the New York City opera. Then he got fired from it a year later for throwing a baton at a baritone who wouldn't sing a part the way he wanted him to. So his reputation, I I I was warned on the phone, that they called me up from the studio and said, Well, you know, this guy wants to do an album and he's coming in, but nobody wants to work with him because he throws pencils at engineers all the time if they're not doing what he says. And uh, you know, do you want do you want to work with this guy? I said, sure, why not? So I went in and, you know, he was he was an odd guy in a lot of ways, but I talked to him. He so he had recorded some tracks in Budapest and he had brought them, um, brought this 24-track from there. And at one point in the session, he said, you know, I really like the strings on this first take, and I really like the horns on this third take. Can you cut those together? And this was before you know in the Rotol's days, yeah, now you know we can do that. Uh, in those days, you could not do that. And I so I took a piece of tape, I took a reel of tape, and I took some tape and I showed it to him, and I said, okay, so this is where the tracks are, like this. Now I can cut this way vertically, but I cannot cut horizontally to do what you're asking for. I'd have to cut through like a thousand feet of tape and have that perfectly match up. And he he's like, oh, and he understood, and because he understood, he was fine with it. If I hadn't taken the time to explain that to him, he probably would have just thrown a pencil at me like else. But he we went on to do four or five more albums together. And um, another funny story about opera, about this particular I am not an opera fan. I'm sorry, I apologize to all your listeners who love opera. Um this was the first time I this was the first opera album I ever worked on. So of course they, you know, when they put me on the phone, they also said, Oh, are you okay doing an opera album? I said, sure, no problem. Um, I was, I went uh upstairs. I had a neighbor upstairs for me who I'd heard opera coming out of her apartment a lot. So I went and knocked on her door and I said, Listen, I've got a session tomorrow. I'm doing opera. I need to just sort of put it in my head and like really get it get a handle on what it sounds like. And she thought that was the funniest thing she ever heard. But she sat there, she played me a few things, and I said, Oh, this is easy. I've done tons of orchestral dates. It's an orchestra with the voice too loud in front of it. I'm minimizing quite a bit, of course. But um, I went back, I did it, and the sessions went great. Uh, but yeah, having that reputation really helped a lot. But to me, the flexibility and the ability to deal or the perception that people had that I was good at dealing with clients who were a pain in the ass are really kind of the same thing. It's a matter of, you know, listening, being open to different things, being open to the mic that you think shouldn't be good and having it be good anyway and be the right one. Um, and just rolling with a with a producer who's, you know, who's not really good at communicating, and but but you figure out what you need to figure out to make sure they're happy with the project and make sure the project ultimately sounds great.

Joey Stuckey 40:18

Yeah, I mean, I mean, what a lot of what we do, uh, and and people don't realize this when they get into this business. Um, and you really have to have the right mentality for it uh if you want to be successful, but we manage expectations is what what happens. And you know, a lot of a lot of what we do is actually act as psychiatrists during the sessions, you know, and just you know keep keep things moving, keep things positive, keep things but you're right, like taking the moment to sort of like, okay, here's why your idea is not gonna, you know, not gonna be possible, you know, that that is important, you know, to just sit down and explain to someone uh in a way. But you know, Gary, you um you are natural, you're you're a natural educator. I mean, there are people that you know can educate and are called to it in in a significant way and and have that gift. And then there are people that do educate uh because they need the job, but that but you know are not as good about communicating. Like I I can tell you when I went to music school the first time uh as a as a whippersnapper, um, I had a professor who was very um just angry that he was not being some highly sought-after arranger and had to come teach these stupid kids. And uh it was a real challenging uh a challenging moment. Uh so you know, there there are people that that are in the education system that you know probably shouldn't be. But um, you know, I I mean I I love that you're so good at that and you have spent an enormous amount of time uh educating. And and I think that's so wonderful to have your experience and your your your vast knowledge for students to draw from. And and that is but you've got you've got the um the you've just got the right the right uh stuff to actually impact people in a meaningful way, which I think is a great honor. I've always been you know honored to teach when I had the opportunity. And when I first got in the business, I was asked to teach for years and years and years uh on guitar and stuff like that. And I and I wouldn't because I felt like I hadn't quite reached a place where I really had something important to say. And uh, you know, later I I felt, yes, I am now ready to teach. I I can teach now. I have something to I have something to impart. But do you miss I I say all that because you've done so many things. Like I said, you're a thousand, you've been here a thousand years. And it's like like but but you're still a very young looking fellow. Uh thank you. And and I can I can listen, the thing is, as a as your friend and as a blind man, you literally can look any way I want. So you will always be evergreen.

SPEAKER_00 43:01

Uh well, that's thank you. That's so thank you.

Joey Stuckey 43:05

This is how I tricked my wife into marriage. So um the uh but but the truth is, I mean, what I want to say is like, do you miss the tape? I mean, because I have to say I love analog tape, but I do not miss winding it. I always hated that.

SPEAKER_00 43:19

I just I don't miss that at all. It's sort of a mixed thing for me because you know, on the one hand, I do miss certain aspects of it. I I used to love that, you know, for the 30 seconds of rewinding the tape, that I would get to talk to the client or take a bite of my sandwich or whatever. You know, whereas now you know you really have to incorporate breaks. Yes. Uh whereas then there was an automatic every five minutes, you had 30 seconds off while the tape rewound. That's a beautiful point. Uh and we do need to set it I just I know this sounds weird, but I mean, even the smell of the tape, and I know people complain about all the shedding and the smell and it I loved having that when. When it wasn't really shedding, but it was just the slight fragrance of the tape rewinding. Um and just the feel of it, the physical feel of it. I loved the physicality of tape.

Joey Stuckey 44:11

I love it. I can't see or smell. I'm down two senses. So I didn't even know it had a smell. So I've learned something new today.

SPEAKER_00 44:17

Oh well, it's it's not a smell that everybody loves. It's one of those things that you know you you either love it or you don't. And uh from what I you know talking to other people, I'm I know that most people don't. For me, it was just part of the whole experience, the physical experience of tape moving across the heads. Yeah. You know, I I mean I love working in digital. It's so convenient, it's so easy. I can work anywhere. Uh, but the thing to me that's missing is the physical experience of it.

Joey Stuckey 44:49

What do you what do you think about? I mean, so this is this is a loaded question, and um and I apologize for it because I'm setting you up here, but I have some very specific views that everybody's aware of, and I've received a little grief for it. But uh what do you think about we we are now in a place where uh the you know the the technology is moving at at such a pace that it's becoming difficult to fully understand all the ramifications of the advancement? And so of course what I'm talking about is artificial intelligence. So you know, there was recently um I'm I'm paraphrasing and making the story short, but there was recently uh some uh some unhappy Berkeley students uh who said Berkeley College of Music, why is all of a sudden uh all these courses that you're offering on artificial intelligence? We came here to play our instruments, basically, is what the the end of the discussion. So um my my feeling about that is that you you have to educate on AI some because to ignore it would be foolish. Um but but what do you think? I mean, we have in the music business, every time there was a new technology, people thought the sky was falling. I mean, the photograph record was going to kill the live music industry and the piano roll and the you know all these different things that have come out. But but I will say I feel like AI is a is a little different because it is changing so fast. Um, what is your thought about AI, its place in our industry, and its place in education?

SPEAKER_00 46:27

Well, it's funny because you stole some of the way I would intro into this, which is that the whole sky is falling thing. When I started in the business 40 years ago, um, I was being warned by people I really respect. Like, why are you even going into this business? There are these things now, these Lindrums just came out and these DX7s. And oh my God, have you heard about these uh sequencers? And you know, you're not gonna need engineers or musicians anymore. There's not gonna be any need for recording studios. My feeling was I kind of like it here. I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna stick it out and see what happens. And that worked out okay for me. Um and what I did was I said, well, you know, let me learn how a DX7 works, let me learn how to program a Lindrum. Uh I get out ahead of it. And it's not that they would call me to program the Lindrum, but the fact that I knew how to do it and the fact that the clients knew that I knew was a real plus uh in that era. And going through every one of the changes, you're right. There's always a sky is falling moment. And for a while they seem to be about 10 years apart, and then they're about five years apart, and now it seems like they're every day. Um but uh my feeling about AI, and this is what I tell students, is look, you know, it's like any other technology that came down in a way, in that if you get out in front of it and you learn how to use it to your advantage, it'll work for you instead of you working for it, uh, which is really where you want to be. You want to be have AI working for you. Um, you know, that being said, I mean, I I'm not gonna say I like AI because I don't. Uh I think that there's a lot of negative to it, aside from the environmental issues that are related in the, you know, all the AI creation.

Joey Stuckey 48:08

Oh, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

Um all the shortcutting, uh, the fact that somebody who has uh no musical knowledge and has never written a song in their life can write a song, fully orchestrate it, produce it, and release it. And the fact that that's being done on a very broad scale, especially on platforms that I don't use, like like Spotify, where there's an alarmingly high percentage of AI created work. And um I'll put quotation marks around the word work, and uh that these are diluting the pool of residuals for the real artists who are actually creating and putting stuff on Spotify. I think it's a real problem. I still think that ultimately, if somebody has the drive to be in this business and stay in this business the way I had the drive 40 years ago, they're gonna learn how to use it to their advantage because there really aren't any other options. You can't ignore it, as you were saying. The reason Berkeley is teaching it, and the reason that most responsible uh programs now are teaching the students how to use it, is not that they can, so they can replace what they would do as talented musicians or engineers. It's so that they understand the threat and that you know, in if if they can use it in different ways to supplement what they do. Uh a great example uh from uh from David Bowles, who does all this amazing live recording. He said, Well, you know, I can have AI do a set list for me and do a punch list of where I need to, you know, address coughs and, you know, or or the squeak of a chair or something like that during a live recording. Um I used to have to go through and mark all those myself. I can have AI mark mark those spots for me and it saves me time. So for him, it's a great plus in that way. He's figured out how to make it work for him. And that's that would be my advice to any student is just, you know, do your best, dig in, learn it, and then learn how to how to get it to work for you. Have it do the boring things for you. It's like it's like the joke that's that's always going around, you know, I I didn't want AI to write songs or make paintings for me. I wanted to do my laundry and do the dishes. If you can figure out how to get get it to do the things you don't want to do, then you're in a great situation. If you're if you're terrified of it and you're shaking in your boots and you don't know what you're gonna do and you don't know how it works, uh it's you're not gonna win that battle.

Joey Stuckey 50:31

Yeah. And and you are still are are you still teaching um uh full time? Are you still No?

SPEAKER_00 50:37

I'm actually I actually, as of the beginning of this year, I'm retired. You can't do that. I don't know what that means, but I'm okay. So this this is the third time I've retired, frankly. And and uh the other times I ended up back working full-time. This time I'm not gonna do that, but I'm still writing. I'm still uh dealing with a lot of AES things because I've been in AES leadership for 25 years. There's there's a lot of stuff that goes on there um that I just on a day-to-day basis I address a few little things. Um I'm I'm in the process of trying to work with uh the audio people in Puebla, uh uh Mexico to get a to revitalize their AES section and get a a vibrant student section going. Nice. So I still keep myself kind of busy.

Joey Stuckey 51:24

Well, that's great. Well, and you you are um you you were telling me earlier before we started the the podcast about where you uh where you're living now and and and how how interesting it is. And uh I think that's very cool. It sounds like you're really taking time to to enjoy uh you know the the world around you, which I think is great. I I would like to say, you know, you have developed so many curriculums over your time for for many different people. So I really value your your thought about AI and how it would integrate into you know the modern music business uh or the modern music course you know for students. I I think I think what you're saying is you make it work for you. I mean, I I don't disagree with any of that. At the same time, um I think that Isaac Asimov's three laws of robotics is probably a good idea. Uh you know, I don't want to be murdered. I don't want to be murdered by my sentient toaster in the middle of the night. Uh, you know, I'm I'm being sort of silly, but what I will say is, and I want to see what you think about this. So I have noticed uh, you know, what I will I will get uh the opportunity to go into an area and do two or three days of master classes and uh and and and you know student portfolios, and they bring me their mixes and we listen to them. And I think you know, as a blind person, I mean I'm I'm uh just a walk instead of ears. I think there's some value to that um uh in the way I process sound and and you know, the way I understand it in a way uh that's unique uh as a blind person because it's all I got. I mean it's it's so you know, I I process it in in in a different way, you know, the way the way the way it speaks to me. Um anyway, um the thing is I have been detecting uh in the last handful of years uh this very high base level of anxiety uh in students. And um and and and uh and I don't know if it's the AI thing or what what the thing is, but they they seem to be uh really struggling, you know, with with uh with this high level of anxiety. And and and a lot of people that I know that are very gifted who have master's degrees are really struggling to find work. Um and I just wonder, I would love to hear your thoughts on why you think that's happening in our industry. And then the second part of that pro second part of that uh analysis I'd like you to give me, uh, as someone who's still designed all these uh you know curriculums and things, is um I feel like the tech companies that have invested so much money in AI for the past 10 years uh are really working overtime to sell us on the idea that you can't truly be living in the 21st century without AI becoming some integral part of everything you do. And what concerns me about that is the same thing that kind of bothers me about streaming, which is that there seems to be this push towards the goal uh is instant gratification. And the only the only thing that's worth pursuing in life is this instant gratification. The idea of working towards something, creating something that takes time and effort uh is sort of uh being poo-pooed. I think that's you know, to me, that's kind of what Suno says. Like uh playing a musical instrument is too hard, why would you want to do that? Uh so that's that's I have a that frankly offends me. I mean, I just you know um, I I agree with you.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

I mean, so what's what's your thought on it? You know, on Facebook. Well on Facebook, I'm always making fun of every AI ad, whether it's whether it's something that where somebody generated an AI image to go with their ad, and I say, you know, why did you do this? You'd be better off with a real image and then a message, or or whether, you know, whatever it is, or if it's advertising something like sumo, which I you know, I understand some people are gonna love, some people are gonna speak about how great it is. To me, uh I believe it is a step backwards in terms of creativity. But going back to so you basically asked me three questions. So going back to them, the first one was about anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 55:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 55:53

Um, I believe that anxiety has always been very high in our business. I believe that there are, you know, I was I was probably very anxious in the 80s. It was a long time ago. I don't remember, but I'm sure I was about where my career was going to go and what it was gonna be. And um I think that in the last say 20 years, people have become empowered to embrace that, admit it publicly, and talk about it. And I think that's a bigger difference uh than the fact that the anxiety exists, because I think it always existed. You know, when when I was a kid, we you know, nobody we weren't allowed to talk about depression or or anxiety or any of these things, ADD, ADHD, none of this stuff was diagnosed, none of it existed. And, you know, big boys don't cry, and you know, you're we're not supposed to complain about stuff. And over the last really, I'd say it's about 20 years, a lot of that stuff has been, you know, let's just say uh uh teenagers and uh people in general have been empowered to admit their fan, that their struggles and the things that they're they're they're fighting. So, you know, uh so people will talk freely about anxiety now, which they didn't used to do. So I think that's a big part of it. I don't think it's changed. I think there was always imposter syndrome in our business. I think that, you know, my first year in this business, I was going, uh man, I hope nobody figures out that I don't know what the hell I'm doing. Because and I think that we all went through that phase, and I think some of us never got out of it. I'm still, you know, I had somebody say to me the other day, I was talking to them about um uh they were talking about moving to Mexico potentially. And I was saying, well, well, sure, just you know, you can do it, you this, that, you know, you're establishing your business. He's like, Well, I'm not like you, but I don't have this great following, and I'm not super established like you. You can go anywhere you want and do whatever you want because of that. And it was like, what are you talking about? Really? Me? And I thought about it and I said, Well, I can see how people think that, and I appreciate the compliments and and all, but I still have a degree of imposter syndrome. I think everybody we all have that, and that feeds our anxiety. Um so I don't, again, I think it's that that we're recognizing and acknowledging it now more than that. I don't think there's really any more or less than there ever was in our business. We we we're in a super competitive business. And this takes me to the next question, which is that it has always been a super competitive business. When I would started out in New York as an engineer, somebody basically sat me down and said, you know, there's probably 100,000 people in this town that call themselves engineers. You know, of them there are probably about a thousand, maybe, who actually have any clue what they're doing. There are about a hundred who are good at it, and there are about 20 of us that make a living at it. Yeah, those are the numbers. So if you really think you're that one in 10,000, then sure, stick it out. Why not? Um, and you know it was it's true. I mean, it's always been very competitive, and if anything, it's just gotten more competitive now, uh, thanks to the the democratization of recording and the demystification of it. Um when I when I started engineering, started doing gigs, I would, you know, the producer would ask me for something and I'd you know, scoop out a little bottom on something, and the mix would clear up a little bit, and they'd kick the back of my chair and go, man, you're a genius, and you're this is amazing. And it's like the guy had no clue what I was doing. Whereas, you know, if I do that in a session now or anytime in the last 15, 20 years, you know, they'll they'll look and they'll say, Oh, you took a little bottom out. Oh, yeah, it sounds better. So, you know, I've lost the mystique. We have lost the mystique. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a shame. And that hurts. That hurts us in the job market because a lot of these people, they'll, you know, they'll come to me to make it sound better, right? But ultimately, most of the work they're doing, they're doing at home on their Pro Tools rig. Yeah. Do you think so? Um, yeah, so you know, as as far as it's true, you know, people are yet a lot of people are going out and getting their degrees and then not getting work. Uh, my feeling about that is you're still better off having a degree than not having a degree. That was my question. But the fact that they had a four-year degree or a master's degree still helped them in the field they're in now. And so they're not mixing their favorite band. You know what? Most of us don't get to do that. Uh the fact is they're still doing something. Hopefully, they enjoy what they're doing, and hopefully they are in a better position for it because of the education they've had. Because, you know, a four-year degree isn't like a trade school degree. I have the utmost respect for trade school degrees. Somebody wants to learn to be a plumber or an electrician. I think that's great because I need a plumber sometimes, and I need an electrician sometimes. Oh, yeah. And I'm glad somebody has that training. But that program is very focused on learning how to wire a building or how to clear pipes or build a you know a system. Um a four-year degree is different. It's it's a liberal arts education, it's a broad perspective. So you don't just learn about audio. You also learn how to be a citizen in the world. You learn, you know, a little bit about social sciences, and you take some other classes that are that are outside of your of your field, and you become a better person as a result. You become a, let's not say better, let's say a more knowledgeable person, a more understanding person about what other people, uh what other people's situations are and about what they do and how they do it. So I think there's a lot of value in that. Um again, it's tough to tell a kid who just took on, you know, $100,000 in debt for getting his degree that he's not going to work in the field that he really wanted to. But that has always been the reality. You know, when I was an assistant engineer in New York back in 82, there were other assistant engineers who ended up leaving the business and doing other things because it was too competitive and because they weren't advancing. And I don't think that's a fundamental change. I think everybody sees it through their own lens. So I hear students talking about themselves now and about how why can't they get a job? Why can't I get a job? And that's not the right question because the business is a tough business, and not everybody gets a job in the business. So do something that's related. Work in corporate AV, you know, work developing ringtones, you know, do whatever you have to do where you're sort of adjacent to the business. You know, I've sent a lot of students who who aren't getting a break right away into the broadcast. And for some of them, it ended up being a great career. You know, I shouldn't admit that some of my students have now are now probably ready, getting close to retirement themselves following a great career uh of uplinking satellites. I have several former students of mine who work in major sporting events, um, and and they love what they do, even though, again, they're not mixing their favorite bands' albums. Um, so uh the the thing about audio that I like to make sure students understand is it's a very broad field. You know, you can do anything, you can get together with people doing interactive media, and you know, you don't really think of them. They're put installing, you know, exhibits in museums and things like that, but there's an audio component to it when you walk up to to one of those speakers and it starts talking to you. Why not be involved in that until you get your break doing what you want to do? Meanwhile, you know, build your home studio and and and work with bands and who knows where you'll end up. But in the meantime, you're still doing something in the audio. I love that.

Joey Stuckey 1:03:56

And so what what is your, I mean, what is your I want to I want to drill down to this just a little bit deeper. Uh you've already kind of answered most of it, but I mean, what is your feeling as to how someone should proceed and choose like where they go to school and you know what what degree they get? I mean, do you do you have like some general rules of thumb you think are really helpful that that will give you that baseline flexibility? Or or I mean what you know when you're navigating picking a school and picking a uh a specialty, I mean, that's that's very difficult. I mean, do you have any sort of advice you could you could share to help shape someone's thought process as they select those things?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:33

I think that's a great question. And I get that question a lot, which is not surprising. I have a lot of, you know, people reach out to me and say, Oh, yeah, I have a cousin who's interested in audio. What should I tell him? And the first thing I always say is, like, well, is there a family business he can go into instead? I have these things. Um, what I tell them is it's a very difficult business. I don't recommend going into this business unless, like me, 40, 45 years ago, you have this feeling deep burning in the pit of your stomach that you're just only going to be happy doing this. In that case, do pursue it. Um, but then, you know, I have a series of questions that I ask, like, you know, what's your budget for school? Can you afford to do a four-year college and get a four-year degree? How about if you started a community college? There are so many great two-year programs in the country now. Um, in fact, the most recent place I was teaching just before I retired, Mendocino College in Ukaya, California. They have a great program. And um, you know, it's a two-year program, it's a community college, it's very inexpensive. So it's a low financial commitment. It's it's someplace where people aren't going to graduate with $100,000 in debt. And then, you know, if they really love it and they think, well, I should really take the next step, they can transfer from there to a four year college. And then they've only taken on two years of the more expensive debt, uh, but they still have the four year degree. And um, you know, again, you know, if they're In the California system, then you know there are some of the state schools that are cheaper. So they don't get hurt too badly. Now, if there are people who say, well, I won't be happy unless I go to one of these really top names, but I want to go to a McGill or a Berkeley or you know, NCSU or UMass Lowell or someplace that I've heard of, I say, fine that, you know, go for it, but just acknowledge what you're taking on. You're gonna get a great degree. You're gonna learn a lot more than audio. But at the same time, you know, you're gonna graduate with some debt. So as long as you're comfortable with that. If not, then start in a community college and then transfer to one of these schools for your last two years. Nobody's gonna look at your degree from Belmont and say, oh, well, if you did the first two years of a community college, they're gonna say, Oh, look, Belmont grad. Absolutely. Yeah. So, you know, I I I mean, I've taken, I've gotten more realistic, and I have to tell you that the four-year colleges I worked at when I was a chair at Webster University and I was telling schools, telling students, you know, have you thought about going to you know the St. Louis community college in Merrimack and getting your associate's degree there and recording and then coming back here? Because if you do that, I can tell you that all, you know, all the beginner level caught courses, you'll have fulfilled that. Oh, and by the way, you know those gen eds everybody talks about. Guess what? If you come in with an associate's degree, you don't have to do any gen eds. And they go, oh, really? Nice. So yeah, and that's not true at every college, that's not true in every system, but it was true there. Yeah. So, you know, I I think that there are some, there's got to be a reality check. I think that's what this comes down to. It's like I can tell students, you know what, if I have you for four years in a four-year program, I'm gonna teach you so much, you're gonna come out knowing so much about every aspect of the business, not just the technical aspects, not even just the aesthetics, how to handle clients, things like that. You know, you're gonna learn so much. But on the other hand, I understand not everybody's in a position where they want to graduate with four years with that much debt. So go to a community college first, you know, get your associate's degree and then come see me, come see me here, and I'll do what I can with you in the last two years.

Joey Stuckey 1:08:12

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean that's a brilliant idea. I I I love it. I love it, I love it. And and you know, um uh I I I wonder how you feel about um, you know, online uh degrees, because the one thing I will say, I'm not gonna name any names, but uh I know some people who have online uh degrees in now this is specific to audio engineering. Uh with with music business, I think there's no real difference there. But in audio engineering, one of the things that's not being taught online because it's tricky, is you know, analog signal flow and like you know microphone technique. So uh uh that that's harder to teach, not in person. But what what do you think about online classes? Uh even certificate programs versus uh you know degrees. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:59

Well, I I think, well, let me just take on certificate programs first. I think that any education somebody gets is better than getting no education. And I think that some of the certificate programs are taught by incredibly brilliant, talented people who are great teachers and that the students do come away with a great deal of knowledge. The problem I see with the certificate program is how that's going to translate into employment. Because unlike when I started, where all you had to do was knock on a bunch of doors and then show that you, you know, made the coffee before somebody asked you to, um, these days people look for the degree when they're hiring. Now, not everybody does, but a lot of people a lot of places do. You know, they say, oh, well, you know, you don't have a four-year degree or you don't have even at least an associate's degree. You know, oh, certificates are great, they're nice, but we're looking for more. So there is that risk. Um, I still think it's a good idea uh for anybody to get knowledge anywhere I can. I mean, before I did anything else in this business, I actually took a course through the new school for social research in Manhattan. It was a six-week, one-night-a-week course at associated uh recording at 723 Seventh Avenue in Manhattan. And I, you know, I just got a taste of it. I said, well, is this something I really want to do? Let me go take a look. And I learned a lot. Uh, and I really enjoyed the class. And it's funny because Counterpoint is in that same building. So I ended up working in the same building where I had that first class in. Uh, but um, you know, all that being said, I never expected that certificate that I earned through the new school to be uh to be something that would open a door for me. It that was for myself. And I think if people do those classes and acknowledge that, you know, this is for me and it's gonna help me in my career, but it's not necessarily gonna open doors. Now, you know, I say that, and yet, you know, some people will go to these programs and they'll come out and they'll get a job at a at a nearby studio. You know, somebody goes to a great program like Blackbird Bird Academy. Oh, yeah, they're great. And they come out and, you know, that name has has a lot of cachet. That name actually carries more weight than some of the degree programs at for-profit schools that I won't mention that don't carry a whole lot of weight, unfortunately, in the hiring process. Um I I I think I think students need to be very careful uh, you know, about what they do and what their expectations are. Going back to what you were saying earlier about managing expectations, I think that's something we need to do for ourselves too in this process.

Joey Stuckey 1:11:36

Yeah, I have absolutely said to students uh almost the same thing you have, and I have not done near the amount of uh educational work that you've done, but I I have said, look, here's the thing like if you hurt so bad when you're not doing music or audio that you are just not complete as a person, uh then this is for you because you will need that that drive to shield you from the insanity that is his business. Like if you're you're gonna you're gonna need that protection. If if if that's not how you feel, this may not be what you want to do. And uh my wife's an advanced practice nurse, and uh you know, I'd say besides the music business, medicine's the other place where you you need that same uh that same mentality. You gotta you gotta love it because you're gonna have a lot of late nights and a lot of crazy people. But I'm I'm I we've been talking for a while, I've been taking your time. I just want to finish up on um two things, and then I will let you get back to your day. Um what's what is your feeling uh on the appropriate use uh uh and uh of uh Atmos? Like how much do you think Atmos is a game changer in the industry and and and uh you know do you do you enjoy it? Do you do it? What do what how do you how do you think that integrates? Boy, is that a loaded question.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:01

I know, I know. I think you know what, at the moment, I think it's an amazing format for theaters and concert halls and any place where they can actually trick it out. Uh I have been, I have listened to loads of Atmos mixes uh on uh you know in demos at conventions, at AES conventions and such. I love the way it sounds. Um I I I've I've I mean I I love it, but at the same time, I don't know a lot of people who are raising their ceilings so they can get enough height to have the height because these eight-foot ceilings aren't high enough for that. Yeah um so I mean that's a problem. I I think I think it's I think it's it's a real drawback. I think that, you know, you know, is somebody really gonna put that many speakers in their room? And I know the answer is some people will. Are some people gonna actually design their living room such that they have enough ceiling height where they can do it? I think some people are. I don't see it having the the the kind of market saturation that something like stereo has where all you need is two speakers. And yeah, placement is still important, but important, but it's a lot easier with two speakers than it is if you're trying to do uh, you know, uh the seven and then four and then one or two.

Joey Stuckey 1:14:23

Yeah, yeah. Oh well the thing that the thing that blows my mind, I mean, I hate to say this, because the idea of Atmos, I love. Uh as a blind person who thinks in 360 sound, right? Uh, you know, this is how I experience the universe. Maybe I'm setting the bar too high, but I can tell you that with film, I've experienced some Atmos that was pretty exciting. Uh with music, I you know I've been kind of bored by it, to tell you the truth, and that's not a popular stance, but I just I just haven't heard it used in a profound way that just lights me up with with it. I I you know, it's like it just seems like everybody's doing what's real obvious. Oh, the back speakers get the reverb, you know. I mean, I don't know. It I I just haven't heard a lot of Atmos mixes that were exciting enough to say, yeah, I'm gonna pay $10,000 to put this system in. I mean, it's just you know, right? So I don't I mean, what do you think that we're using it correctly in music? I mean, I just again I just haven't heard very many exciting mixes.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:30

I will I will never put down any of the music mixes that I've heard in Atmos because some of them have been you know pretty interesting. Yeah, I will say that the best things I've heard in Atmos are ambient rather than uh rather than music. I got I was in a studio in in Tokyo, uh uh I want to say it was 4P, 4PE, something like that. I can't remember the name. It was a couple of years ago, and they had uh they were do they did a few different demos and one chair in the center of the room, everyone else sits in the back, and that's the only place you sit where you really get the full experience. And it was a very comfortable chair, and it was an amazing experience. And we listened to some music and it sounded amazing. And then they played, like, oh well, this is like being in a swamp and you you know, the dragonflies and all the different sounds.

Joey Stuckey 1:16:21

Oh, that sounds amazing!

SPEAKER_00 1:16:22

Oh, that blew me away. It was like I I felt like I was needed to swat some of these things away because they they felt so great. I love it. And so that's why it works in movies. That's why it works so well in movies, because in movies, you know, a good sound designer is creating a great ambient uh uh track. And and you know, this ambience is is part of the whole experience of the film, which makes it work better. Um, you know, for music, I I remember back to the days I when I started quad was still a thing. And uh, you know, I remember going to going to a Pink Floyd concert, the Animals Tour, where they had, you know, wow, there's two stacks of speakers in the back, also, not just the ones in the front. And it was amazing. But, you know, these were such specialized, specific instances. Uh, when it comes down to a remix of a great old tune that's now done in Atmos, and it's like, oh, so now that guitar part is uh up on my upper right, a little bit behind me. And you know, okay, does it really need to be? Is that better than when it was in the right speaker mostly? And uh the answer is yeah, it's kind of better.

Joey Stuckey 1:17:32

Yeah, but it's not going to be away. I just I just feel like yeah, I just feel like the uh I feel like the the a guest of mine uh on this podcast who's a Grammy Winning Children's Artist, um, and uh she's fantastic. And she said something I thought was really profound about Atmos, which was that when she used Atmos on her album, she didn't record the album first and then mix it in Atmos. She thought about Atmos from the the beginning phases of the songwriting. Like she she she the whole thing was conceived to be an Atmos. And because of that thought process, the the choices were were really smart and like enjoyable and you know and and profound and and and that made all the difference. And um that's I mean I kind of feel the same way. I I kind of feel like you know, uh if you just because you can put the guitar, you know, uh over on the side instead of the front. I mean, you know, it was like, okay, we can do these things, but but why are we doing it? You know, and you know, there there are I guess you know, every atmosphere mix I've ever heard so far, you know, there's always something that they uh decide, well, we're gonna spin this around all the speakers one good time. And you know, and and and you know, and I mean, you know, and and I I get the temptation, don't get me wrong. I get the temptation. But I just I just wonder what you thought about that and how much that should be part of the the modern musician's toolkit.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:10

Well, I I think that what you were describing, where it's incorporated right from the start, makes it a very different thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:17

And I think in that case, it makes perfect sense. You know, and when I think about things like some of the mixes that I've heard from somebody like Morton Lindbergh, who does these amazing mixes where, you know, it's not just the instrumentation, it's not just the placement, you know, it's the space that it's recorded in that becomes part of the process, which really goes back to the old days of recording in a way, where they only had one microphone. And the way we mixed, or I shouldn't say we, the way they mixed in those days was, oh, the sax is too loud. Sax player, take two steps back. Oh, yeah. And they would make a point of recording in rooms, you know, in concert halls and ballrooms, old radio ballrooms that had just amazing sound, because that room became part of the entire mix and part of the experience. And I feel almost like there's a sort of a connection back to that in what something like Morton Lindbergh does where the space is incorporated. You know, you think about Phil Spector and the Wall of Sound. You know, this this is not a foreign concept, that the room becomes part of the process. Uh I think with with Atmos, it become takes that to another level where if that's being incorporated right from the start, and the engineer and the producer and the musicians are all thinking, well, we're going to be in this space and we're going to put ourselves in this spot in this space, so we can mic things in this way. And then when we mix it, we can pull these things off to the side or out to the back or up to the top that really make more sense there because of the space we recorded in and because of you know everything being taken into account right from the start.

Joey Stuckey 1:20:58

Yeah, I I I think that's absolutely brilliant. And I love I feel like Rudy van Gelder like did that. Exactly. Those recordings. Like that's why my favorite trans records are usually you know van Gelder editions, you know, because the room was such a big part of the character. Sure. Um I want to I want to close on this, and um uh you my friend have such a good heart. Um you you're such a uh a a citizen um uh of the world, and uh and and I just love your thought process, and I love that uh in in regards to education, in regards to AES, you have uh always been about uh inclusion. You have always been about uh you know the idea of of you know supporting fellow beings and and being you know a neighbor, I think, uh is the way I'd like to think about that. I I wanna I want to close on um this this thought that I have been struggling with, um, and that is um the role of art, uh and we're not gonna go down too specific here, but just just general. The role of art, uh, and I believe that sound recording is both a science and an art, uh, but the role of it uh as as political speech, as as as uh as the way we want to inform the world in which we live. Um, you know, a lot of people um have uh have have uh sort of said in recent uh months uh that music uh has no place in politics. And and I'm not asking for specifics here, but I'm just saying I am confused by that because music has always been political. You look at John Lennon and Bruce Springsteen and you know all these guys that are.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:50

I mean Woody Guthrie and Phil Oaks and you know how far back do you want to go? I mean, the spirituals, black spiritual abuse. Absolutely.

Joey Stuckey 1:22:59

I mean, it's always been part of that. So what what do you think? What do you think the uh I mean what do you think the role should be these days? Because I will say we're we're in a time when uh there's a degree of of anger uh that I never experienced before. And and it used my but just just to put just to make sure people understand where I'm coming from before I let you answer. What I'm saying is this my father was part of the Carter administration. Now, whether you liked him or not is is not relevant to me. But what what was what I grew up with, and I grew up having a chance to hang out in the Oval Office and all this stuff. When I grew up, man, you know, people had different ideas about what was the best way forward for society. They were different ideas, they were debated vigorously. What there wasn't was hatred. And and and and you could have a different opinion and not be labeled the enemy. Uh so so I wonder what you think is uh appropriate for because I wrestle with how can Joey Stuckey be a good citizen and a good steward of of thought and of kindness and of of inclusion and and and and how can I use what I do on a daily basis in the music industry to lift people up? Um so so how do you think that works these days? Because in some some ways, you know, it can be detrimental to your career, it can uh honestly can be unsafe sometimes. So what do you think, what do you think our role is as artists, as as engineers? Like, how do you feel like the political landscape has changed to the point that, you know, how do we speak today? What is uh what you know, what what is the role of of modern music making uh vis-a-vis politics?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:54

Well, well, you know, when I was in college, uh we used to have some really interesting and engaging conversations, you know, in a room full of people, some of whom are liberal, liberals, some of whom are conservative, some are in the middle. Uh, but we all had our opinions and we all respected each other's opinions and listened to them. Right. Um that was a long time ago. And I I really think I know this is something that everybody says, but I think social media has had a lot to do with us uh being very snippish, you know. I mean, you I think it's it's kind of the same mentality of somebody who's like a normal, nice person and they're kind to the people around them and all that, but they get behind the wheel and they'll cut you off and without without a second thought, uh very much against what their personality seems to be. And I think that social media has brought out the worst in so many people, where you know it's so anonymous and you know, you can you can say anything you want. It doesn't matter because who cares? Because nobody can knows who you are. Uh and I think that's that's just a terrible thing. Um, going back to the first part of your question, I I think that art has a responsibility uh in politics to speak the truth to power because artists are the ones who are able to do that. Uh again, going back to you know, the Woody Guthrie's, Pete Seegers, Phil Oaks, all of these uh folk songs that inspired uh the entire uh 1960s uh folk music revolution in in Manhattan and you know everything else that happened uh, you know, as a result. And, you know, it's just to me that that's a huge part of what artists need to be doing. Uh now, whether that truth to power is on this side of the aisle or on that side of the aisle matters less than the fact that art moves people, art gets people to think, art gets people to act. Uh the whole idea of art, whether it's music or a painting or whatever, is to evoke emotion. So if we are evoking emotion through music, um and you know, there are political things going on that we are unhappy with, this is a great way for that to shake out. And it's a great way for a lot of people. I love what Bruce Springsteen is doing. I love that he's not taking any grief from anyone over this. Yeah. And, you know, it's true of a lot of artists now that they're speaking out. And and I see the same thing you do, Joey, that you were saying, people saying, oh, you know, shut up and make music. You know, what are you doing talking about politics? You know, why are you making this political? The answer is music has always been political. You know, yes, there have been there are love songs and there are other songs that are not about politics, but there have always been songs about politics for not only as long as I can remember, but you know, I've paid a lot of attention to the history of music, and it's always been there. There's always been politics in music. And I think it's it's a valid thing for an artist to do.

Joey Stuckey 1:27:58

Yeah, I mean, Bob. I mean, you know, I mean really interesting. So I I love I love all this. Um, you know, and I I have to say I have felt compelled, uh, you know, just just like morally felt like I wasn't doing the right thing if I did not gently uh sort of uh uh address things that are not based in fact. Uh and you know, one of my pet themes that I've been trying to crush for a million years is mailing a song to yourself and thinking that's a copyright. I mean that you know, uh it it just it drives me so crazy. Um and then uh the other thing is that uh uh people are saying that somehow 440 hertz is evil and the work of the devil, and uh you know, I just I just it it makes me tired. Um but uh all that to say, I I was like, uh let me explain how 432 got there. Hang on. So but anyway, um I love that we've had this amazing conversation, and I want to just give you a chance to is there anything you would like to impart, share, any project you want people to know about, anything else we have not uh covered that you would like to share?

SPEAKER_00 1:29:07

Absolutely, and I appreciate the opportunity to do that. Uh we've talked about education a lot, and one of the things that I've worked on recently is the second edition of my first book, Shaping Sound in the Studio, uh in the Studio and Beyond, um subtitled Audio Aesthetics and Technology, because it bridges the two. It's a beginner's textbook. Uh I originally wrote it, oh, in the very, very late 90s. And uh this new edition is co-authored by a former student of mine, which I feel sort of brings things full circle, uh, Mike Testa, who teaches at Salem uh College in uh Massachusetts. Uh he was a student of mine at UMass Lowell when I was an adjunct there, uh at the late 90s, maybe 2000, 2001. And he, in fact, uh for the the the book, the textbook for our course, I wrote it because I didn't like any of the beginners' textbooks. And at that point, I wasn't published yet, so I would Xerox it and put it in a you know, three-hole punch and then put it in a binder and sell it to the students for something like five or ten dollars each just to cover my expenses. Um he still has a copy of that, and now he became a co-author on the second edition of this book, which just came out. Um it we obviously had to modernize it because 25 years a lot has happened in the last 25 years uh since it was first published. Uh it's on Rutledge Press. Um it's, you know, it's sort of when I first wrote it, it was for first-year college students. Now it's for home recordists, podcasters. Uh, anyone, you know, a musician who got himself Pro Tools rig and he's recording his friends and he clicks on this button and something sounds better and he doesn't know why. This book will explain to him why. So it's a beginner's textbook, uh, and and I highly recommend it. Uh in fact, we're just I've been I've been bothering the publisher Rutlich to uh make a Spanish version of it because there's all these programs in Latin America who tell me if I put it out in Spanish, they'll use it in their programs. So I'm trying to push that forward. And uh in the meantime, it's a great book. You know, if somebody what I've been doing lately is if somebody says my cousin is interested, like we were talking about before, my cousin is interested in audio, I say, well, have him take a look at this book and maybe buy it because you know it's gonna fill in some of this stuff for him. And if he can get through that book and he's still interested in audio and he's not bored to tears, maybe he does want to go into a school program. Uh is this an e-book or paperback or what? It it's all of the above. It's an e-book, a paperback, and there's also a hardcover copy if you're crazy enough to pay three times the price. I didn't say that. Is it signed? That's the question. Uh I'm easy to get a sign. Anyone come up to me at any AES show with a copy of that book and I'll be happy to sign it for you. The other one that we were talking about, how does it sound now? Uh, the interview book. That's also uh uh I did a second edition uh a new interview in there and re-edited, and that came out just at the end of last year. So that's also on Rutledge Press. Um, I don't want to sound like I'm just here hawking my books, but uh a big connect, a big thing to me right from the start when I started in leadership in AES 25 years ago was connecting the history, really the past to the future. So the history to the students. The first two committees I was on was the education committee or the education committee and the historical committee, because I really saw the connection between those two. And I always talk about the history a lot as a teacher. Uh, I think more of us need to do that, need to really connect the past and the future. So, in a way, I feel like this the fact that these two second editions of these two books in the last year are are are a big part of me connecting the past to the future.

Joey Stuckey 1:32:57

I love it. I think that's fantastic. And you have you have another book as well. What what there's there's the third one? What's the third one?

SPEAKER_00 1:33:03

The third one's called Recording on the Go. It's it's a book for um uh location recording that I wrote with uh Paul Henrik, uh very talented engineer and one of my adjunct professors when I taught uh when I ran the program at Webster University. Nice. So um I, you know, that one is still available. That's on Sengage on my my old publisher, Sengage Publishing.

Joey Stuckey 1:33:25

Gotcha. And and then you're you're still very active at AES, so people can find you at conferences, so that's good.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:31

Yeah.

Joey Stuckey 1:33:32

And and you're living you're living uh in in Mexico these days. Uh I'm spending most of my time.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:38

I I still split my time a little between here in the states. Uh, but um, like I'll be uh in Nashville in October for the AES show, of course. But I'm also gonna be in Lima, Peru for the Latin American uh convention for the AES show. Oh, that is so cool. Looking forward to that one.

Joey Stuckey 1:33:55

Oh, I mean, there's so many great AES conferences. I mean, if I could go to them all, I would.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:00

I mean, I just you know You know, if I could go to them all, I would too.

Joey Stuckey 1:34:04

Yeah, I mean, it's so great. Well, maybe I'll see you in Nashville, because that's about a six hour drive for me. Uh I mean, I'm not driving, but uh but uh but maybe I'll maybe I will see you there and and and uh take you to dinner and get my and I will buy a copy of the book so you can sign one. Um absolutely I would love I would I would love for it to be an audio book.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:22

That would be that would be a real treat.

Joey Stuckey 1:34:23

I would I would love it for it to be an audiobook, but I know those are expensive, but uh you know just say it. I I'll you know I'll talk to the publisher or you know, if they want me to narrate it, I can narrate it. Well that saves money. I mean, I when I do audiobooks and I've done I've done a number of audiobooks here in my hometown of of sort of like uh you know regional authors that that had a following. And and the reason that I that's back when I had a record label, but then I was like, oh, I can't do this. This is too this is too hard. Uh but um you know I I did the audiobooks mainly because I wanted to hear them. I was like, I was like, nobody else is making audiobooks. I was like, yes, I will. Uh so you know that was it. But I do you know it is an expensive proposition. But uh but anyway, Gary, thank you, my friend, for your time, your talent, your spirit. Man, what a what a privilege. And um I'm I I just uh I know that you say you're retired, but I suspect that uh I suspect that won't last for long.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:17

You know, whenever I tell any of my old friends that I'm retiring, they go, again? So what are you gonna do this time? Because they know me. I'm I'm not gonna start playing golf or take up fishing, you know. No, no, keep doing what I've always done. Absolutely. But anyway, Joey, I also want to thank you, Joey, because for this opportunity. It's really great talking to you and great having a chance to have a chat here.

Joey Stuckey 1:35:40

Oh man, my privilege, my pleasure. And you can check out all the incredible guests we have on the podcast. It is truly an embarrassment of riches. Uh, the easiest you know way to find us is uh uh just by going to www.stuckonsound.com. But you can also find us wherever your podcasts uh usually hang out. And again, thanks to Gary and thanks to you for listening. And we will see you next time on Stuck On Sound.