Joey Stuckey 0:00

Welcome once again to Stuck on Sound. And boy, I'll tell you what, it's it's uh every day when I do these, I am so thrilled and excited because I absolutely have the coolest collection of friends. And and the person on our podcast today is one of my dearest friends and and also always the smartest guy in the room. Daniel Keller's with us today, and he is gonna tell us all kinds of interesting things. And through our conversation, you will learn some nugget that will be of value. I know. Daniel, thank you for for being with me, my friend. And getting up early to do it.

SPEAKER_03 0:32

Well, thank you, Joey. Um, and I gotta say, I I have to argue with that. I never, never want to be the smartest guy in the room.

Joey Stuckey 0:41

Too bad. Hey, listen, what here's the here's the here's the deal. No pressure, but you're my guru. So that's no no pressure. Oh boy. Well, um and I expect you to start wearing robes and uh sandals.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

Do I have to grow one of those Gandalf beards and shit? I mean, can you? Uh no, actually, it looks really bad when I do it.

Joey Stuckey 1:01

Okay, all right. Well, well, I my wife. So here's the thing. Uh, this is I'm gonna tell people too much early. As a brain to as a brain tumor survivor, I have a uh host of issues I cope with every day. Actually, being blind is kind of the easy part. Uh so um, you know, I don't make I don't make adrenaline and I have all this stuff. So there are days uh that I do my job uh and I I never let anything get in the way of the music. I mean I've I have sung, I'm not saying this was wise, but I've sung with 102 fevers before, you know. I I just you know, I just do it. And so uh the um the thing is there are days that I feel like, oh my god, I just do not have the energy to shave. And so if that if I'm having one of those weeks, uh I get a pretty big bushy beard and look like I belong somewhere deep in the woods, you know, with with a hatchet. So so I can't grow, I don't know if I need a Gandalf beard, but I can grow a woolly beard. You're in that part of the country, man. Yeah, well that's true. I mean, honestly, all I need is a little, all I need is a little plaid, I need some plaid shirt and some overalls and you know, maybe a pitchboard.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

No, you know, it's funny, man, because um uh, you know, for some strange reason, um when when the when they gave out the testosterone distribution across my body, um the beard was the one place where it didn't actually take. So um I and I I've I know I have a few friends like this, but we and we joke about it, but it takes me like two days to grow a five o'clock shadow, you know.

Joey Stuckey 2:30

Oh, how interesting. Well, you know, you're still very virile and handsome on.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

You know, I can I can do my manly thing, you know. But no, man, it's funny because um, I mean, I can grow a beard, I've had a beard. Um but you know, the other thing about it, man, is like the problem with having a beard is that for me, it's like then I never know when I'm wearing my lunch.

Joey Stuckey 2:52

You know, I love it. That that is that is an issue that I hadn't thought of. Uh I I have to say, I'm gonna digress one more time, but we love rabbit holes in this show. Uh the other day I was having lunch and um and and I did literally wear, I mean, it was the damnedest thing. I've never experienced anything like that. I opened up a uh a burger because the person that was, you know, I'm I'm I'm in I'm older and I'm still having to bum rides because I'm a blind man. And so I had someone pick me up to get me to the office and uh one of the people that worked there, and uh they couldn't find a Chick-fil-A. So we we went through Burger King because they're new to the area, whatever. And and I opened that thing, and I mean, literally exploded all over me. Mustard running down my arms, running down my face. It was awful. I mean, before I even take a bite, it was a disaster. So in that instance, I knew I was wearing my lunch pretty fast because I I had I've never seen anything like it before. They must have put the entire mustard bottle on that burger, is all I can say. Hey man, some people pay extra for that, you know. It was that that is true. That is very true. Let me tell you this. You have done so many interesting things. And I love I love that. And we're gonna go into those, but you know, I always want to start with the young Daniel Keller. Like, well, what got you into this crazy business of ours? You've worn many a hat, uh, but but what got you into to begin with? Because uh, you know, that's that's always so fascinating to me to hear what what what drew you into this sort of insane world that we live in.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

You know, I I have tried many times over many years to try and psychoanalyze some of it, because I wonder about that myself sometimes. You know, um I had a um I had a kind of a messy family life growing up, and uh I think for me as let's say a teenager, um not just music but the arts in general was the only thing that saved me. Um and it's funny because you know I was I picked up the guitar I think around the age of 13 or 14, and um I actually uh I you know I started learning your your basic rock stuff, and then in high school I really wanted to be involved in the music department, and I went to the teachers at the music department and they just completely spurned me. They were like, No, man, you don't play classical music? Well, you you don't even play jazz? No, you know, those those guitar chords and stuff, that's kind of quaint and funny. And so um I was very turned off by that, and uh completely accidentally I stumbled into the art room at my high school, and uh I was completely overwhelmed and and um you know kind of intimidated by a whole bunch of really, really great painters, um, many of whom I know to this day. But um the art teacher was a guy who kind of saved my life, man. I mean, he invited me in, he started encouraging me to work in the arts, and uh I ended up becoming uh I I majored in sculpture. I really yeah, and so you know, like um I never really I just did whatever came to me in terms of art. And meanwhile, of course, I still kept playing music, and by the time I got out of high school, I got out a year early, and uh I I started traveling around the country, and my thing was always, you know, I wanted to be a songwriter, I wanted to be uh, you know, the next Beatles, John Lennon, whatever you want to call it, uh Bob Dylan, I mean, you know, whatever was big at that time. And um I just sucked up music like a sponge, man, all sorts of genres of it and everything. And um I think that was just what drove me, man. That was what kept me sane for the longest time. Um I ended up Now were you were you touring, Daniel? Were you out playing with a band when you when you got out of high school? Yeah, I got I got picked up I kind of got picked up by a band. I mean, I was I was traveling and these guys uh I met these guys at a campsite and they were in a band and they invited me to basically travel with them on their tour bus for a couple of months, which I did. And um basically a cover band. We played up and down the up um sort of the Rocky Mountain coast for a while. And um the you know, the the Rocky Mountains, let's say, you know, Denver down to New Mexico and Arizona. And um I ended up eventually leaving that situation and um traveling to San Francisco. And San Francisco, you know, I was a this was uh this was the 1970s and I was a burgeoning post-hippie. So, you know, uh the San Francisco music scene just sucked me in right away, man. I started out doing doing clubs there. I was right in time for the sort of punk new wave era and started playing in bands, playing in clubs, and got bit by the recording bug after that. You know, we went into a recording studio in San Francisco, and um that just sucked me right in, man. I mean, I I um I I've told this story before, but uh I went into I went in with the band that I was in at the time. I've been in a lot of bands, and uh I went in with the band that was in at the time to record at at my first quote unquote real studio, and um I stood in front of this wonderful Neumann microphone for the first time with this big old pair of earmuffs on, you know, great uh I think they were, you know, AKG headphones, whatever they were, I don't know. Um but I was standing there and I slid my hands into my pockets and I could hear everything. And I leaned into the mics and I said, I leaned into the mic and I said, Man, I can hear the dates of the dimes in my pockets. I was just sucked right in. That's awesome. I love it. Yeah, and so you know, from then on, man, it was, you know, it was off to the races. I went out and bought myself a a four-track reel-to-reel um little mixing board, and just started doing demos, you know, bought a synthesizer, bought more more guitars, and you know, uh, which has been sort of a a bean of my existence. I've had way too many guitars for any scene in human beings.

Joey Stuckey 9:00

Wash your mouth out. That's not a thing. It's uh too many guitars is not a thing, Daniel.

SPEAKER_03 9:05

Well, yeah, I've heard that too. Well, you know, you've got to convince my wife of that because uh let me add her. Let me at her. We have a um we have a detente right now where um she she will allow me to get a new guitar if I still have wall space. You know, that seems reasonable.

Joey Stuckey 9:21

All right, all right. I like that.

SPEAKER_03 9:23

That's a little negotiation. Yeah, exactly. So um, but um, you know, I've been doing it ever since. And um, you know, the um the band thing turned into wanting to be an engineer. Uh I moved down to LA and fell into a gig at a really wonderful studio called Cherokee, and um, you know, ended up working with a lot of very, very uh high-profile artists, musicians, and really learned a lot from some of the great producers watching them. And went on from there to Paramount, went on from there to uh b basically run my own thing. I got a um production deal and moved to Germany and produced German rock bands for a number of years, and um, you know, so yeah, I've kind of been all over the map musically and geographically, I guess.

Joey Stuckey 10:10

Yeah, and I I for some reason I had you down as a bass player. Like I I don't I don't I I didn't realize you played guitar as well. I mean, you know, they're they're related. But for some reason, all the stuff I've heard musically from you has been about bass. So how did I how did I get confused there?

SPEAKER_03 10:24

No, you are absolutely right. Bass is my main axe. I kind of I started out with guitar, but I discovered bass. And um I think the thing for me was also that I discovered bass as not a guitar player playing bass, but as an actual bassist. You know, I really I I think you know, some people understand the difference between the two and some don't. Oh yeah. That's right. And uh, you know, I really um I I fell into the bass. I fell in love with the bass. I love the the um uh you know, the thing about bass for me is that guitar can stand on its own as an instrument. Of course bass can too, but bass is more um one has to orient oneself to the rest of the band as a artist, you know, and you have to be able to do that.

Joey Stuckey 11:15

Yeah, I that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 11:16

Yeah, you have to be able to zoom out. You gotta be able to zoom in too, you know. I mean, bass is uh an instrument where you change one note and you can change the whole song. Um but at the same time, being playing bass, you've got to really orient yourself to the entire orchestration of the band. You've got to really pay attention to all aspects of it. It's the bridge between the rhythm component and the musical component, so to speak. And so it's it's always been for me my main axe, and I've been very, very fortunate to play bass with a lot of really, really great musicians. And um, you know, I just um I I feel like I can fake it on guitar. I can do, you know, I've done a lot of guitar work, I've done a lot of I've played rhythm guitar in bands and whatnot. But if you ask me what my first love is, it's definitely playing the bass.

Joey Stuckey 12:10

Well, I have to I have to just do a quick side trip and hear who are your favorite bass players? Oh gosh. Um I mean just you don't have to name them in order.

SPEAKER_03 12:19

You know I I kind of hate those questions because I know I'll always leave somebody out. But um, you know, it's funny, I was talking to somebody about this the other day, somebody who was um uh not all that well known, but one of my favorite bass players was a guy named uh is a guy named Graham Maby, who uh That's a cool name. Yeah, played for many, many years with Joe Jackson.

Joey Stuckey 12:39

Uh oh wow, is he the bass player with Joe Jackson?

SPEAKER_03 12:41

Oh yeah, he played with Joe Jackson. He also played uh I caught him on tour once with Joan Arbitrating of all people. Um very melodic bass player, but you know, I um I of course McCartney's gotta be up there. Oh you know, that that goes without saying. Um I I truly love almost all melodic bass players, bass players who understand that it's it's an ensemble instrument, you know. And uh like I said, I'll I'll definitely leave out a bunch of them. But um, you know, I I think for the most part, anyone who plays more than just the root notes, you know, I mean, yeah, that's uh that's important to me, man.

Joey Stuckey 13:24

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean that that the bass player has a lot of uh you know control over how things fit together or don't. I mean, that's that's a big deal. Oh, yeah. And you know, that's um I've heard Sting say that you know he he specifically chose to be the singer and the bass player because he had control over the the the melody and and the and the bottom, and that that really gave him an enormous amount of control of how things were shaped. And I think there's some I think there's some uh you know a lot of truth to that. I mean I I uh interestingly, um I was taking guitar. Um I was too sick to play music at an early age, so I was about 17 before I got started. But uh I uh my guitar teacher said uh and he's a dear brother of mine, he really is. He said, uh you gotta get out more. Um and uh um I want you to, and you know, for a blind person that's tricky because I can't drive, you know. So uh or or shouldn't. I have once, and and I'm still I'm still here. I'm still here. So it obviously turned out okay. Uh but we I had some friends and we tried it, and then after about five minutes, like, you know, we should stop while we're all got our body parts. And we did. So anyway, um, but he said, yeah, and he said there's some students in mine that want to form a band, and um and uh I want you're gonna you're gonna play bass. And I was like, I don't know anything about bass. He's like, you'll figure it out. He just threw me in the deep end. That was that. But for the longest time, that's uh I was you know, I I played a lot of bass and it and I love it. And I do I still as a session musician, I still I play bass and guitar, and you're right, it they are very, very different, and it's very apparent when you're listening to a record. If you're listening to a guitar player playing bass that doesn't realize there's a difference. I mean, yeah, you know. Yeah, I mean yeah, and I mean yeah, so well, so now you you've done what I'm interested in now, you you've done what I think most people do. We we have the entree into the business from the artistic standpoint. We want to be players and songwriters, and then of course you got into uh and where I've always really kind of known you um primarily is um you know, you you in the in the technical side of of things, um, you know, uh you're always leading panels at NAM and uh you've got this incredible um, I guess it's a blog cast or TV show or however you want to call it, um insights and sound that you that you do with all the I mean with every major producer ever. Uh you know, and uh so there's all that. But um how how did you I mean it it is kind of a I kind of hate this word, but in a way it is a bit of a gig economy in the sense that you know uh the people that want to make art full time have to wear multiple hats. So how did you get from that San Francisco uh you know recording as in a band and then over to Germany and did that to kind of where you are now? And again, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna beat you in the head with this. You are sort of the guru, and I think everybody thinks that. Uh it's not just me. Um there'll probably be some sort of weird cult that grows up around you, I'd imagine. Uh I hope not. Yeah, yeah. Part of me, part of me wants to just sit back and watch it. But anyway, um you know what? I may start it. Um but anyway. I'm gonna I'll I'll start writing the Bible tonight. Uh the the the the the word according to Daniel Keller. So the the the thing is though, I mean, how did you kind of get to where you are in this in this new space? Because you are a real, and this is something that people don't understand a lot. You are a real educator, and you are very much someone that gives of yourself and of your time. And that is a calling. That is not something one can just do. I mean, you know, you some people teach uh because they don't have a choice or whatever, but there are others like yourself that are actually called to it who you know do something special with it. So how'd you kind of get from that that that uh you know songwriting, producing thing, like and then this this all this other stuff that that you kind of do now? You've done so many things, but how did how did you transfer from Germany, uh, you know, cutting demos there and and and records um to what all you're doing now?

SPEAKER_03 17:33

You know, you said something a minute ago that kind of resonated with me, and it was about the deep end, jumping into the deep end. Yeah. And that's kind of the story of my life, man. Um I uh you know, it's it it's funny, man, because I was just thinking about this the other day. Um I did a panel, uh I moderated a panel at the at the AES convention last year, and I called it uh something like jumping into the deep end, I think, or whatever. But um, you know, during that panel, I had to laugh because I used this word autodidact. And uh one of my colleagues on the on the panel, um, dear friend Ross Ross Hogarth, uh one of the Oh, he's one of my dear friends. Yeah. And um Ross starts like he gets this kind of look on his face and he goes, Autodidact. And he starts, he grabs his phone, he starts like looking it up, right? Big panel. Okay. I I literally had to like, you know, scan the audience and say, okay, how many people here didn't know that word? And half the hands went up. So um, so for the benefit of any of your listeners who don't know, it it means self-taught. And it means it it's basically it's a story of goddamn near everything I have ever done. Um I am a self-taught musician, self-taught artist, self-taught producer, uh self-taught in pretty much everything I've ever done, um, even to the point where um when I I I had a I had a temp job for a while while I was in a band in San Francisco, um, and I was uh I was do being an office clerk at the phone company, and uh I went up to the boss of the office there who I had met like once before, and uh I said to him, you know, I know about as much as any of your texts, and he, you know, and he could have just like either laughed or fired me right then and there. And instead he just looked at me and he goes, Wanna take a test? And I said, Sure. And like the about a week later, they scheduled me for some kind of technical test. I'm looking at it, it's all Greek to me. I have no idea what the hell we're talking about, but I just made some educated guesses on a few things that made sense to me. And uh turned out I got the second highest grade they had ever had on this test, and they promoted me immediately, gave me this job as a communications tech. I knew nothing. Wow. Same thing happened to me when I um when I walked into Cherokee Studios, uh, left a resume there, the guy called me up and said, Well, I see you worked for the phone company, and that's great, you got some technical background, but um I want somebody who I can train basically who's never worked in a recording studio. And I said, Dude, that's me, because you know, I've been in a studio as you know an artist and as a record, you know, recording sessions and stuff, but I didn't know a lot about technical stuff. And uh guy took me under his wing and trained me on a bunch of stuff, and a couple months later he quit, and all of a sudden I'm you know, I'm working, I'm running their tech department, and I'm you know, I'm having to learn things, and that has been pretty much the ongoing theme with me all along, man. I get obsessive about something, I learn it the hard way by, you know, and probably make a whole lot of mistakes and back into things, but that's been kind of the story of every single thing I've done. I've I've taught myself to do it, I've figured out when I've done things wrong. Um I have a lot of times, you know, subsequently talked to experts who have been, you know, formally trained and looked around and said, damn, I'm doing it right. You know, because I love it. I love it. Yeah, you learn stuff in a vacuum, you know, so you never know. And um that's kind of you know, I'm uh I am a card-carrying member of the the uh ADHD community. Uh although I have not been diagnosed, I I refer to myself as a lead actor in shortest attention span theater. But uh, you know, I just I I see something that I want to do, and I start figuring out how to do it, and that has been pretty much everything that's that's happened to me. You know, I got a I got a um I started a record. Label that way too, and then started calling people and saying, hey, how do you do this? You know, and ended up working with a really great engineer. And uh we formed a partnership, formed a record label in Germany. I left that gig and you know, I mean, I I just I I fell into all sorts of gigs just really completely accidentally, man. I mean, it's just been it it seems to be my modus operandi, you know. So you're pretty much forrest gump is what you're saying to me. Except that I can't run that fast, yeah.

Joey Stuckey 22:32

Oh yeah, yeah. Well, neither can I. You if you want to see something sad, watch me run. Um the uh I mean even the blind know it's sad. The uh the the thing is, yeah, I I've I've I love that about you because I think one of the overarching themes, and I've I have been so blessed to know so many cool people and and invite them on the podcast. And the goal of the podcast is to celebrate our guests and their accomplishments, but also through the conversation to to impart you know wisdom and and inspiration. And and we do that. And and so a lot of you know, all of us have sort of found ourselves you know saying yes to things and being open to opportunity and to take every opportunity we have and just maximize it. And I mean that's that's really it. I think that's sort of the entrepreneurial spirit, um, you know, and and and that's what it that's what it takes. But it does require uh a certain uh spiritual makeup, uh a certain uh you know ethos, uh a certain work ethic uh to be in this business. And um I kind of tell my you know students and clients and whoever people listen, you know, uh it's a crazy business, it's a hard business, but if you love it and you are not complete without it, then this is for you. If if if if not, it's gonna be more difficult to survive the weird stuff.

SPEAKER_03 23:59

You know, yeah, and that's pretty much you know, you you just put your finger on it, Joey. That's the whole thing, is I have always felt like this is all I do, this is all I want to do. Um it's not that it's all that I know how to do. I don't want to sound like that, you know, because I I you know I I think I am a fairly self-sufficient individual as far as that goes. Yeah, you're a restaurant, man. That's right. But you know, it's like what are you impassioned by, man? You know, I have always I think one of the things that I have always really, really been fascinated by, not just on a musical level, but even on a psychological level, is the whole creative process. And that's really what I'm I'm very, very focused on. You know, I um I'm fascinated by the way ideas come to us. Because I've always believed that you know we don't we don't create anything, we just channel things, you know. Sure.

Joey Stuckey 24:56

Absolutely. I mean that there's there's a lot to that. I mean it just yeah. When you get inspired, you're like, I mean, yeah, I wrote a song the other day, Daniel. It's one of my favorite songs that I written, wrote it about uh five minutes. And and I I as I as I sang these words that came out, I was like, what the hell am I talking about? I I I had no idea what the chorus meant. I was like, I they it just feels right. I'm singing this. So I I did a verse of the chorus, and then I left it and came back uh a day or two later to actually sit down with my intellect uh and my training and all this stuff uh and and finish it out. And then as I finished, it's like, oh, I know what it's about now. But at first, I was like, I have no idea where this is coming from. I don't know what it means. I'm just doing it. I'm just I'm just I'm just a messenger.

SPEAKER_03 25:37

Yeah, that's that's happened to me a lot of times. And in fact, it's funny because there's a there were you know, were songs that I wrote in my 20s and early 30s that I turned around years later and went, holy shit, that was prophetic, you know. And I had no I had no idea, I had no clue that any of this was uh you know in the cards for me, so to speak, but there was a lot of that. There's been a lot of that, and um, you know, I think I think to a certain extent, man, I mean, you know, one has to have a trust, a trust in the process. You know, um I I remember once talking to a brilliant, brilliant artist and songwriter by the name of Brenda Russell, who I have always really truly admired. She's uh she wrote all the music to the color purple. She uh she she uh had a really famous recording of her own called Piano in the Dark. Uh and Brenda is somebody who I really, really, truly think is immensely talented. And, you know, we had the same kind of conversation. And one of the things she said to me that really kind of stuck with me, she said, you know, I wrote my first song at the age of 14, and she said, right after I wrote it, I cried like a baby because I was afraid I might never do it again. And then I realized that all this stuff doesn't come from me, it comes through me. Yeah, interesting. You know, there's a great um, I mean, that's a if you've ever uh studied like many of the philosophers like Alan Watts and you know some of the great uh the great creatives, and uh even down to modern times, man, you know, if you've never read uh Rick Rubin's book, he's got a great uh a great passage in the introduction of the book where he talks about this too, that there is almost what I would call like a creative unconscious, that you know, that's where all the that's where the whole the ideas are all kind of floating out there, and they just come to us, and you know, I think for the most part, man, what we're doing is that stuff is just coming to us and coming through us, and then the process of actually recording or even down to like, you know, uh whether you're painting a picture or whatever, all of that is just the documentation of all the work that's kind of going on under the hood, so to speak, you know. I like that.

Joey Stuckey 28:05

I like that's a wonderful way of putting it. The documentation, I like that. It's very, very, very cool. I I I gotta say, so you know, um uh I want to talk about uh I don't want to get too far ahead, but I want to talk about the artist brain uh collective. We're gonna talk about that and and how important that is, uh, and and really that something you're doing that's so needed and interesting. But before I get there, uh I want to ask you, like, you know, you've been an artist uh in multiple formats, apparently sculpting as well. And you've you've you've been a business person, you've been a technical person, you are a master communicator. Um so like as an artist, like how how much of that do you still do? How much I mean do you do you put stuff on on the evil Spotify, or do you I mean what are you you know what do you do do you do you put your music out still or what do you how does that go? Do you do you have time?

SPEAKER_03 28:56

It's it's funny, man. You know, a lot of stuff goes in cycles in one's life. That's very true. I I I wouldn't say I stopped doing music because I've never stopped, but for a lot of years I focused on other people's music, on producing other artists. Uh I spent a lot of years, especially my years in Germany, um, but even prior to that, my years in LA, I spent a lot of time working with other artists and helping them sort of birth their ideas. And a lot of that music is out there uh, you know, under other artists' names and whatnot. But um recently I started getting back into doing my own music again. And it it's kind of funny because you know, we now, as technology has advanced, we now have the ability to do things like stem separation. And so I just a few months ago I started playing around with some demos that I had done like twenty plus years ago, and thinking, you know, I really like this, but I hate the 80s drum machine sound, you know, which was so big back then. But uh the Was it wind drum or what was the well yeah, you know, the big echoey snare that sounds like white noise, that kind of thing, you know. I gotcha. And uh so I started separating some of the stems, and now I'm going back and starting to work on some of this. And the um, you know, I I started um and uh over the years I have been dabbling in teaching, and then this last uh this last year I uh made it official and I'm uh an adjunct professor at the university in Las Vegas, UNLV. And uh, you know, part of what they brought me in there for was to teach a course on advanced audio production, and what that means is uh I don't teach you how to use Pro Tools. When the students get to me, I tell them, you know, you better know all that stuff already because what I'm gonna teach you is communicating with the artist, working with the artist, the whole, you know, the creative process stuff that we just talked about. And so um in the process of doing that, I've been kind of reviving some of my own stuff too. And um, you know, so yeah, I'm kind of getting back into it a little bit now, and and I at some point will probably put out some stuff, but you know, I'm I have never felt like you know, music music has to be commodified for the sake of those who make it, but I've never been one to really invest in commodifying the music. So I've never really cared about like um you know wanting to get uh wanting to get stuff out there in that sense. And even though a lot of the artists that I've worked with have done things that were successful commercially, I never really tried to do that myself as an artist. And I don't even have that desire now. Even you know, the the music industry is so different now, of course. And oh yeah, you know, I would never encourage anybody to look for a record deal now the way I would have 20 years ago. But but man, I you know, honestly, I don't care that much about making music for commercial's commercialism's sake. I just I I feel like it's most of the people who make music, we make music because we have to. That's right. You know, and and that to me is really that's the most important thing, man. And if you're if you're doing that, if that's what it if that's what motivates you, then that to me is more important than anything else, you know. And I'll I'll stand I'll stand by and help anybody do that, man. That's that's the best thing in the world to me.

Joey Stuckey 32:34

I I agree with you. I mean, you know, the the thing is I tell people and and I say it jokingly, but not jokingly, uh I'm a producer, an engineer, and a session musician, and and those things pay for my habit of being an artist. You know, that's that's basically the truth. But you know, I mean, I I never had the desire to be an Adele or a Michael Jackson or any of that. I mean, I just you know, I I have a song called One Song at a Time, and and it's basically you know my overarching philosophy that I'm willing to make life a little better, one person, one song at a time. If if if if one person benefits from something I've created, then you know, we're good. I mean, I I gotta eat, but otherwise we're good.

SPEAKER_03 33:15

And you know, and and you know, I mean, going back to what you said about me being being wear, you know, wearing all those hats, that's part of the reason for that too, is that, you know, I I I never really wanted to be dependent on that one thing, man. I mean, you know, I I have a lot of very, very dear friends in the industry, and many of them are exceptionally talented as artists, uh musicians, producers. But, you know, there's one common thread that a lot of people have pointed out to me that, you know, I I really that that that kind of hit home with me many, many years ago. And that's, you know, a friend of mine who's a wonderful bass player, he's toured with a lot of very, very name brand artists, you know. He said to me, you know, the problem for me was that every time I did a session or a tour, I was auditioning for my next one. And you know, that's that's just it, man. It's like I I feel like I'm I'm much better off emotionally being able to do a whole bunch of different things than investing everything in doing one thing. And so, you know, there's that old joke about, you know, jack of all trades, master of none kind of thing. But um it's really funny, man. I I was I I mentioned that to a friend of mine recently, uh another wonderfully talented individual named Marcus Ryle, who uh he was the inventor uh or one of the one of the inventors of the ADAT. So, you know, Marcus is a supremely talented individual, great musician, uh started the a company called Line Six many years ago.

Joey Stuckey 34:52

Oh man, I was one of the first Line Six endorsers. Um I still work very closely with those folks.

SPEAKER_03 34:59

I love them dearly. You know, they um that's part of the Yamaha guitar group now, and you know, they also own Ampeg, which is another company I'm very, very close to.

Joey Stuckey 35:07

Ampeg is the bomb when it comes to bass amps. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 35:10

Yeah, but uh but you know, I'm I'm I mentioned that to Marcus once. I said, you know, Jack of all trades and uh you know master of none. And he just he he he shot back with no no you're a master of jack of all trades. That always stuck with me, man. Because it's like there's a t-shirt. Yeah, exactly. You know, and it it it's like, yeah, man, you know, there's I think that there is there is something to be said for being multifaceted, and maybe you don't do anything. You know, I mean, look, there's bass players who can play circles around me, there's all sorts of people who are better at a particular thing than me, but I'm not in competition with any of them, man. You know, the the only person I'm in competition with is myself yesterday. And if I if I feel like I've come a long way from whatever it was that I was trying to do and trying to learn, then that's success, man. That's how you define it. Absolutely. At least that's how I define it.

Joey Stuckey 36:07

Well, that that's exciting, you know. I I I I have this conversation with artists all the time because as we're gonna get to, and this is a nice segue, uh, a lot of what we do as producers is psychology. And uh, you know, and and keeping the sessions positive and you know, keeping the bandmates from killing each other, at least while they're in the studio so they don't get blood on my floor. Um, you know, that kind of thing. But but I mean, you know, I I said, you know, I said, look, the the thing is, uh you gotta do you. You know, you you gotta do what it is that you do. And uh and and that's special. And uh whether or not you make a billion dollars or you know, 50 is something that's hard to know, but but you should just be you. And uh I I believe that there's room for everybody uh to to contribute something unique and and something even profound, but you know, it's one of those things where um you know I have always had um the the the complex issue of being uh eclectic. And as an artist, I want to do what I want to do. So I don't feel like I should be limited. If I want to sing opera, I'll sing opera. If I want to do the death metal, I'm gonna do the death metal. I mean, I just yeah, I just want to I feel as an artist there's no limitation now. Financially, there's a limitation in that approach because it's you know, it's it's kind of a you know, everybody wants to target their audience, and there's all this business stuff that goes with monetizing music as you as you were talking about earlier. But I I do believe that my spirit is more important than any of that, and my natural inclination is to be eclectic and to do a bunch of different things because and and I think you would resonate with this. I'm curious about the universe. I'm inspired by the amazing things that are everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 37:58

You said the C-word, man. That's the word right there. Curiosity is what drives me. I I think that's also why I balt when you asked me about you know my favorite bass players, because again, there's so much out there. I mean, there's so much, you know, diversity in in the arts. And, you know, man, I mean, I can never get enough. I just mean never get enough. And you know, I'm constantly discovering new things. I still experience real joy when I discover a new artist, you know, somebody I haven't heard before. And you know, and it it's so funny to me because I I always feel kind of bad if I get stuck, you know. I mean, look, there's music that I have listened to for 20, 30, 40 years and still love, and I'll play it again, you know, and and that's wonderful and everything, but I also don't want to be stuck in that rut. You know, I I always want to learn something new. I always want to hear something new. Um I you know, God bless my wife. I challenge her all the time because constantly, you know, I'm I mean it's been her flowers. I mean, you know, as I I mean, we were talking about that today because you know, one of the things that um I'm guilty of, and my my kids make fun of me about this too, is um, I I move a lot, you know, I move around, uh I've lived in a lot of different places. I uh you know, I'm I'm always uh I'm I'm sort of perversely envious of people who can say, yeah, I've lived in the same house for 35 years, and I think, wow, that's that's great for you, but you know, I just I can't do it, and it's not that I feel there's anything wrong with it or anything, but just for me, I get restless, I get curious about something new, um, and I'm always looking to do something different, man.

Joey Stuckey 39:44

Well, I I have a I have a similar issue. I mean, uh and this goes to my my my uh life as a brain tumor survivor. I mean, it's it's a it's a it's I I I realize there's a finite amount of time. I'm not depressed by it. Uh I but but I mean I'm aware. And I'm aware that I honestly resent sleeping. I I I really do. And so I have two speeds, which is full speed ahead and then off. And and I'm only off because of necessity. Like I like, oh I'm gonna be sick if I don't go to sleep. So other that's uh otherwise I'd stay up all the time. And my wife actually says, uh and people think it's kind of weird of her to say this, but but she she means it. She says, you know, if Joey could see, I would I would not be able to keep up with this guy. I I it's like the fact that he has a limitation is really helpful because otherwise I'd never see you know, he'd be building a guitar in the basement or something. I mean, you know, of course, Joey does not solder. So that you know that's you know what, man?

SPEAKER_03 40:44

But but I gotta tell you, I gotta tell you, you know, I have worked with um I've worked with a number of artists over the years who have had some kind of quote unquote handicap. And I emphasize quote unquote. Um, you know, I I worked uh many years ago with a woman who uh was wheelchair bound since she was four years old. Right. Had this amazing voice, had an incredible amount of talent, and you know, uh what has struck me about almost every artist uh creative person is that they take that challenge and they turn it into something positive, you know. And that's you know, that that to me is I mean that's what this is all about, man. It's like you know we should be we should all be so lucky, and I don't mean, you know, that you're lucky that you're blind, you know. No, I get it. I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, it it's like that has then challenged you to do other things, you know, and and to to focus your attention on other areas. And you know, it's funny, man, because uh one of the things that I do with a lot of my students, especially since the advent of the DAW, uh you know, people stare at the screen. And you know, I came up in the tape era, and I came up in an era when you know you didn't stare at the screen, but at the same time I understand it, and I am you know I am a bona fide digital audio workstation user. I love a lot of what we can do with this. I like the Control Z is awesome. Yeah, I mean, I love the idea that I can visually look at a waveform and figure some stuff out, but at the same time, man, you know, when I'm doing a mix, I close my eyes. As you should.

Joey Stuckey 42:28

Yeah. I make my students do this. I taught I taught adjunct factory for university for for 10 years. And uh the first thing is like, okay, everybody's gonna close their eyes. And if you think that I won't notice if they're open, just because I can't see you, don't be fooled. I'm gonna know. And uh my I've done this for AES, I've done a number of keynotes, and my keynote is called uh how to avoid sound blindness and return to critical listening. And this is the big thing we focus on. It's like I'm I'm totally jealous that you have the eyes to use these tools. I'm not saying they're not helpful, but music is consumed by the ear and then the spirit. So you should let those things make your decisions and then use these other things as needed. But I love that. I love that. And you know, I I do think that joy is a choice at some point. I mean, I really do. And uh and and so I I choose it. Uh you know, so that's it. I want to talk about the art artist brain uh collective thing you've got going on. You have done I mean your newsletters and and stuff, you know, that talk about this are so beautiful. I mean, they are absolutely incredible. Um I I I just love your you're so thoughtful. Tell me about how this whole idea came about and then how people can join in the the party.

SPEAKER_03 43:44

Well, um, I'll get a little controversial here if you don't mind. I'm okay with that. We we love controversy. All right. Um, you know, I'm not a big um proponent of of recreational drugs or anything like that. I'm a non-drinker. Um I you know but I will say that um I went through some therapy a few years ago. Um I actually had um I had been reading a book by a guy named Michael Pollan. Oh, I know him well. That's got that's a great great author. Yeah, and uh he wrote a book called How to Change Your Mind. And uh the book was about psychedelic assisted therapy. And uh then, as it turned out, uh a dear friend of mine who for many, many years was actually um a music publisher. That's how we met was uh originally I was pitching songs, and uh you know I ended up working with him. I've been working with him now for close to 40 years, off and on. Wow. Where he's one of my closest friends. And um about maybe 10 or 15 years ago, he left the music industry and became a licensed therapist, and he lives in a state where it's legal to do psychedelic assisted therapy, and I went through a session. And I will say, you know, it's not for everyone. I would not urge people to do it necessarily, but for me and for a lot of other people I've talked to, it was absolutely life-changing. And it it um what's the thought process behind it, Daniel?

Joey Stuckey 45:20

What is what is what is being accomplished with that exactly?

SPEAKER_03 45:23

I would say that the one thing that I personally got out of it was that I'm enough. And what I mean by that is that we a lot of times, especially those of us who are self-taught, we tend to be highly self-critical. And part of that is because we we lack a certain confidence because we have not gotten that um uh that confirmation, that affirmation that what we're doing is right, that we're you know, it it's I I mean, I don't know uh a lot of the explanations behind it, but I do know that every single person deals with some sort of confidence issue. You know, we're all we're all afraid that we're not good enough, we're not this enough, we're not that enough. And um for me personally, there was a lot of that going on in my life. There was a lot of um questioning of self, shall we say. And um one of the things that that I went through in this therapy was just this realization that, wow, you know, actually I am enough. And and, you know, just sort of this reflectiveness of my own life and and everything that I've been through, and realizing that, wow, you know, um, I really have done a lot and I really have been involved in a lot of great things, and I really am truly blessed in so many ways. And I don't mean, you know, in uh I I don't want to get into like, you know, a a a spiritual or faith-based kind of thing, because it's not that at all, and that, you know, those those kind of words have been abused by a lot of um established religions, shall we say. But to me, I feel like, you know, there's a certain spirituality that transcends religion and all of that stuff, and a lot of it just has to do with belief in belief that you're gonna be okay, belief that there's a bigger thing than us out there, and it's not about um you know, it's not about anybody's version of God or anything like that. It's just, you know, having a certain amount of faith in who you are, in in what the universe has to offer, and in your own abilities. And a lot of that just came up for me during this therapy, and honestly, man, it was just it was life-changing to me. I came away from that with this vision of this whole, you know, that whole creative unconscious that we spoke about, and this realization that there were so very many people, especially artists, especially younger artists, who go through this exact same thing of feeling like, man, I'm not good enough, and you know, comparing themselves to other people in particular, um, and just feeling kind of insufficient, you know. And so I realized that a lot of that really came down to just being able to point out a lot of these things to people, and I started I started realizing that a lot of the panels that I had been doing, let's say at the NAM show and at South by Southwest and AES, I realized that a lot of those were focused on that, you know. I wasn't I wasn't necessarily focused on wow, what compressor did you use on that vocal? You know, I was more focused on what did you do to get that performance? What was it that worked for you? How did you come across the you know, how did you develop your creative process? And I realized that a lot of that came from this innate understanding, and a lot of that dawned on me through this therapy, I gotta be honest. And and you know, it just it came to a point with me where I felt like I, you know, I saw when I was doing a lot of these panels, for example, that I would sit up on a stage at let's say a NAM show, and I'd be talking to three or four Grammy-winning producers, and they would say, Yeah, man, I have imposter syndrome too, you know, and I go through this too. And I would look out at the faces of the younger people in the audience, and I would just see them kind of breathe a sigh of relief and r realization that, wow, man, it's not just me. This is something, you know, and it it just it triggered something in me, man. It just made me realize that this is a this is a process that we all go through, and anything I could do to help people to realize this and help them to get through this and and give them the tools to realize that you know there's nothing wrong with you, it's a superpower. All those cliches, I felt like that was a great thing, and I really wanted to do more of that. And so I I started um I started working on this artist brain concept with my with my friend Greg, who is the therapist in question, and you know, uh he encouraged me to start working on this. And so far I've done a bunch of these workshops at uh various colleges and and music schools across the country. Um I've done some at UCLA, I've done them at UNLV, at uh Conservatory of Recording Arts and Sciences, a bunch of other schools, and uh every single time I think to myself, well, I wonder if that resonated. And then right afterward, I get 20 or 30 students coming up to me and wanting to talk and just being really, really grateful for it. We started some some mastermind groups where we just all meet on Zoom every now and then just to to say, you know, to check in with each other and say, hey, what's your what's your gripe today? You know, how you doing? And it's it's been wonderful. And now we started to um we're gonna start to do the same thing on Session Wire as well, where we just all get together and you know, we'll we'll call it whatever we want to call it. It doesn't have to be the artist brain collective thing, but it's the job there is to normalize this, to normalize the whole idea of there's nothing wrong with you. It's part of being an artist, and it's you know, it's something that you're not gonna cure, you're not gonna change, you know, learn to embrace it and learn to be comfortable with who you are.

Joey Stuckey 51:47

I think that's beautiful. And I, you know, it's interesting because I have asked a lot of my uh educator friends, um, when I go out to a college or or university or whatever, and uh you just go in for two or three days of master classes, I teach, and then you know, we do various various different things. But one of the things that I really began to, and I I'm not saying that's ever been any different, I I don't know, but it seems to me that life in the 21st century is pretty stressful uh because uh of the constant sort of bombardment of uh information. And um and I just started detecting three or four years ago, I just started detecting this sort of base level anxiety that seemed to be growing, and uh and I was just really concerned by that. And so you know, my approach to it was saying you know, give yourself some grace. You don't have to be perfect, like you don't I'm not even sure I believe in perfection. I I don't know I'm not sure that's real. I'll tell you that. Well, I I'm just not sure it's actually possible. I mean, I I think in a weird way, like I think the limitations make things prettier. I don't know. I I I feel like Oh, totally agreed.

SPEAKER_03 53:02

Totally agreed. In fact, that's actually that's a recurring conversation that I have with a lot of people because I I feel that technology in giving us more tools has in certain ways uh handicapped us because I agree. You know, when we when we had a limited number of tracks, when we had a limited type, you know, limited technology in terms of instruments and whatnot, man, we had to we had to really milk that stuff, you know, and stuff. Oh yeah. You know, I've seen that even now with a lot of the students that I that I work with on sessions, you know, they have come up with this attitude of I can always do another take, I can always do another recording, and then I can comp the vocal or comp the performance. And to me, I feel like if you have only one or two tracks to do that performance with, man, you're gonna, you know, you're gonna be more likely to bring your A game. You gotta step up to the plate.

Joey Stuckey 53:59

You gotta bring it. You gotta bring it. Well, I mean, and uh that I I you know I really believe in that. I think again, I I'm not poo-pooing the tools. I mean, that's they they have their place, but um, you know, I I do think that part of my part of my talk, you know, what when I talk about the sound blindness is I'll I'll bring some I'll bring some hit records and I'll say, okay, here's this is this chart on billboard, this is how many copies it's sold. And now I'm gonna tell you everything that's wrong with the mix. And so I I go in and just rip it apart, and then I say, now, does anybody care? Does anybody like it less? Nobody does. Everybody loves it still. Yeah, because it it has something special. It communicated. Absolutely. And that was that we're gonna be.

SPEAKER_03 54:42

Oh god, they clip all over the place. Man, I mean, there's clams galore, you know?

Joey Stuckey 54:46

Yeah, they they are dirty.

unknown 54:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:48

But you know, that's what part of the beauty of it, man, because you know, and I've said this a million times, man. I want if I hear a performance, I just want to believe you, you know. Absolutely.

Joey Stuckey 55:00

Leave your guts on the stage.

SPEAKER_02 55:01

Yep, yep, exactly, man.

Joey Stuckey 55:03

Well, listen, I'll tell you, uh, I'll confess to you something I don't say to everybody. Uh, you know, I have all these amazing box sets. Well, first of all, if the Beatles put it out, I'm gonna buy it. I'm gonna buy it over and over again. I've got every remaster. Okay. So you know, and so uh I have these amazing box sets with the remix tunes by uh uh uh you know by um my mind as well. Uh but anyway, but by um George Martin's son. And uh couldn't think it was later for a second there, apparently I'm not a stroke. Um so but anyway, uh I have them and I listen to them and I marveled at them from a technical perspective. But my heart's not in it. And I go back and play my early Beatles records with all the grit and all the flaws and all the weird stuff you can hear while they punched in. Uh that's what I want to hear.

SPEAKER_03 55:58

Well, you know, and it's funny, man, because I I'm the same way with like, you know, those Beatles anthologies and whatnot. Yeah, yeah. So most of what that convinced me of is that they took they chose the right takes, you know. Exactly. And you know what's funny, man, because I I have spoken to a lot of the people who worked on those recordings and uh, you know, had conversations with uh with you know a lot of the um a lot of the engineers who were who worked at Abbey Road. And man, you know, every single one of them will say the same thing, you know. It's like uh you know, you it's all down to the synergy of what you've got there. I mean, yes, George Martin was a great producer, definitely. Oh yeah but you know, that does that does not by any means take into account, like, man, first of all, you had these first of all, you had this amazing band, you know, you had four people who the combination of those particular people, that chemistry, you'll never get that again, you know. Yeah, that's right. And then, you know, you had these incredible engineers, you know, guys like Jeff Emmerich, you know, who would who would, you know, and Ken Scott, another one, you know, um uh I mean Glenn Johns, you know, the people who basically they would sit up, you know, they'd lay awake at night and think, how am I gonna do this thing that you know John Lennon asked me to do? And that, you know, I mean, man, that that just the whole idea of the stuff that they came up with, and again, goes back to the limitations, because you know, they didn't have digital technology, they didn't have the ability to, you know, I mean, flanging? What the hell's that? You know? And so all of that stuff, man, I mean, again, those limitations I think are what makes you you try harder.

Joey Stuckey 57:48

Yeah, yeah, totally. I I mean, one of my favorite records um that I've done for me personally was done live in studio three hours, including setup time at Sun Records in Memphis. I did it initially just as a lark. I was like, oh, the the studio is open for three hours a night. We should record here. Let's just record our. We were on tour. Uh I said, let's just record our set at a little trio. And uh we all grabbed it. And and and you know, and and no disrespect, meant, but the guys running sun are not engineers. They do not know how to do anything but put you. And and they say that. They say this to you. They don't know how to do anything but put you on the X where Elvis stood and hit record. I mean, that's that's it. And and so there's no, you know, and there's no click track. And I said, Hey, I you know, you guys got a click you run. No, I went, okay, we don't really need one, that's fine. Uh so yeah, just and I was like, hey, can I you know three mics on the drums? And I said, Hey, can I put can we put an extra mic on the hi-hat? And they said yes, but they didn't do it, and of course I couldn't see they hadn't done it, so I didn't know, but whatever. So I was like, hey, can we just take a direct off the bass? Let's use this funky old 1960s ampeg, but let's also have a DI just for safety. Oh sure, that didn't happen. Uh the the guitar amp was you know a fender from the 60s, but no matter what I did, I could not get a clean tone out of it, so I just embraced it and say, you know what, it's gonna be fuzzy. And so uh we had a large gear in the van. I could have brought it all in. I was like, I don't want to do that, I want I want to experience this. So we did it as a lark. I got it, I got it home back in my place, and I played it and said, you know, this is pretty compelling. It's just three guys in a room, and everything's bleeding to everything, and ain't no punching or fixing or overdubs. And but but the spirit was there, we stepped up to the plate. There's there's content that that means something, and uh, and so it was it was fun. And then I decided, well, I don't, you know, I'll never sell these, but I'm gonna press vinyl because this is such a weird, fuzzy record. Damned if I didn't sell a lot of vinyl in the gigs. I couldn't believe it. Um now Joey can only get about 20 bucks for his vinyl as opposed to the 40 you pay in the store. But anyway, but uh anyway, I I just I love that. And then we had limitation upon limitation upon limitation, but it all turned out to be awesome. It was fun.

SPEAKER_03 59:52

You know, it was there was joy. It's funny, man. I mean, I I've had the privilege to um uh I you know, I've I've I've been to the Motown Museum. Yeah, I've been there too. That's cool. Basically, it's a converted two-car garage, you know. Um I've been uh you know, I've had the the the great fortune to have been to Abbey Road and walked down the stairs to Studio Two.

Joey Stuckey 1:00:12

I have not made it there, but I've got one before I die, that's I'm somehow gonna find my way in. Yeah, I may have to fed up myself.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:19

I tell you, I mean, some of those places, you know, um we call them temples of sound for a reason, you know, and it's it's got nothing to do with you know the technical uh you know, I mean, look, I've also been to Real World, which is an incredibly technically gorgeous and wonderfully, you know, creative space and everything. And, you know, I mean, I love those Peter Gabriel records too, don't get me wrong. Oh, yeah. But it's not about the place, it's about the artist, it's about the art. And, you know, again, man, it's like you you get the right combination of stuff in there, and you got lightning in a bottle, and it doesn't matter where it's coming from.

Joey Stuckey 1:01:02

And I think I think you know, a lot of what I bring to the table that I care about as a producer is love. And my studio is all about that. It's it's welcome home. You we are here to help you, we are here to to help to to make you the best version of you you can be. Every day is gonna be joyful, even when things go wrong, it's okay. We're gonna fix it. And and that's one of the reasons I don't worry or stress at the studio because I know that whatever it takes to make it work, that's what I'll do, and I'll do it with a glad heart. And I don't care if I spend 10 hours when I should have spent four. It doesn't matter. I'm gonna make it right. Whatever I gotta do is I'm gonna make it right. And uh if something breaks, we'll fix it. I mean, whatever whatever happens, we're gonna make it right. I mean, you know, that's that's that's just that's the goal. The goal is that. So I I love that about it. Now, the the other thing I wanted to get your take on, and and I'm gonna warn you this is a complete setup. Uh I am I am intending to push buttons and watch it go. Uh I ask this of everybody because I'm really very concerned, is what I'll say. Uh I would love your thoughts on artificial intelligence.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:18

Oh man. Okay, so first of all, I hate the term because it's inaccurate. Okay. I agree with that. There's nothing intelligent about it, it's machine learning. Okay. Yes, yes. Um now I uh you know, look, I have used various AI components in various ways. Um I do not feel that AI, and I'm again I'm gonna use the term just for expediency's sake.

Joey Stuckey 1:02:45

That's right, because that's the buzzword. That's what we're using.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:47

Yeah, um, I do not like the idea personally that people use it for creative decisions. And that's, you know, look, everybody's got, you know, I I had an artist bring in a tune that we worked on recently where she had had basically uh most of the tracks done by AI, and she said to me, you know, I want to re-record these with real instruments. But I had a little bit of discomfort with the idea that, you know, you didn't you didn't let a bass player come up with that part. You didn't let a guitar player come up with that part. You let, you know, some machine basically come up with it. So that that part of it does bug me. I love the idea of using AI for certain things. Now, you know, perfect example. I mean, I'm a writer, and I have been a writer for many, many years. I've had, you know, literally thousands of articles published and stuff like that. I shudder at the thought that so much of social media right now is AI generated, where I'll see something posted and I'll click read more, and all of a sudden there'll be six pages worth of drivel, you know, and it's all melodramatic crap that looks like it should be in a in a novel that you buy at the at the checkout stand at a supermarket, and you know, it should be read by a low-rate imitation of William Shatner, you know, with all the the pregnant pauses and the meaningful. That's my favorite kind of pause. You know, I mean, yeah, but but the point is like, man, you know, write the shit yourself. I mean, I'm sorry, I'd write a newsletter every month, and you know, and like I I and you know, and that's a perfect example right there. I asked AI at one point, you know, here are the newsletters that I've written. Give me some ideas for topics for newsletters. And it gave me a bunch. And some of them were absolute rubbish, and a couple of them were pretty good. And I took the ones that were pretty good and I wrote the content. I didn't write AI write it for me. And that is the difference right there. And I feel the same way about all that stuff, you know. I love the idea that AI can inspire me to come up with topics the same way. I love the idea that, you know, I could take AI and I could say, all right, um, organize all my patches, you know. Give me a give me a synth patch that sounds like this, you know, and give it an example or whatever. All that's great, but it's not gonna play the part for me, and it's not gonna write the song for me. And if it does, that's kind of where I draw the line. And, you know, um, I don't think, you know, I'm not somebody who says this is terrible. I I I have been through many, many evolutions in technology, and one of the things that I learned long ago is that you can't get the toothpaste back in the tube. It ain't gonna happen. The stuff is there, the technology is there, it's part of our being. And you know, what I have always loved is the idea of give that. To an artist, a true artist, and let them do something different with it. You know, the same way when drum machines came out, they were going to replace drummers. When synths came out, they were going to replace orchestras and real musicians. And then you put them in the hands of real artists, and they'd say, Oh, okay, well, let me see if I can use this as another creative tool. And so, yeah, my opinion about AI is make it another creative tool, and it'll probably be pretty damn good at what it does.

Joey Stuckey 1:06:30

You know, yeah, I mean it's it's it's a fascinating, yeah, yeah, it's a fascinating topic because as you aptly say, and and I've said this on the podcast before, it's you know, I mean, there's always been a chicken little disguise falling, you know, thing when the player piano roll and the phonograph record and MIDI and all these things have said, oh, it's the end of the music industry. And and of course, that hasn't been true. The the only thing that sort of concerns me um and that makes me feel uncomfortable uh is is is twofold. Uh I I feel like there are uh AI is moving so quickly. Uh the law is always behind the technology, that is always the case, but it's moving so quickly now that it's really a different game uh compared to technology in the past. Um it's just moving so fast. And that that concerns me because it usually takes us as human beings time to understand what we've done and how to incorporate it in in the most uh profitable way. I say I mean profitable and like you know, helpful to mankind. Right. Uh you know, you know, and and that's I I'm worried that that that we're not that that we're kind of on a in a time crunch here on that. So I really feel very strongly there should be federal legislation uh to put guardrails around things and and and that just really isn't happening. Uh the other thing uh that uh I would say is that um there seems to be, you know, this is just all this is just Joey talking, this is nobody else, this is just my feeling. Uh there seems to be a push by big tech uh to make us feel like AI is sort of integral to life in the 21st century, and that, you know, the thing that you should pursue rather than creativity or independence or contribution is instant gratification. And um, yeah, it worries me. I mean, you know, I I worry about I don't worry about you and me, but I worry about the people being born now, uh, or the people that are in their formative years now, you know, what what that world will look like in the future if we sort of you know uh take take the sustenance of AI and and and and you know make it make it what we what we consume uh to understand our place in the world. So that that that's that's my concern. I mean, you know, I I'm with you. I mean, I think it certainly has uh advantages. I, for one, as you'll know, because I've been on your your show uh once talking about accessibility with with my friend Jay Pocknall. Uh we I I have been a proponent of AI for the past seven or eight years, trying to move people towards that and away from screen readers for the blind, because the screen reader is so easily defeated by stupid stuff like color and font and just you know. And so so I've been wanting to go to AI where where where you're actually having machine learning where the AI goes, oh, uh I see a threshold, I see a ratio. Doesn't matter what the interface is, I'm looking at some kind of compressor and I can tell the blind user about that and and that kind of thing. So I I'm all about that. I think helping people with disabilities is a is brilliant. If AI can be my eyeballs, I'm all about that. Um, and as you say, if you can use it for organization, uh, you know, and and and that's wonderful too. Um, you know, so so I you know you're right. I mean, but I I I do, like I said, I just do have some concerns because as you were talking about online, there's this growing uh veneer of of authority and realism, but it's not real. And and and so it takes effort to pierce that veil. And so if you if you don't take the time to vet things, you're gonna get a lot of disinformation.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:14

Well, and you know, I mean, we could we could get down a rabbit hole talking about that. I will say that um, you know, your your previous point about legislation is absolutely v spot on, and unfortunately, um that has to do with the fact that we got a bunch of um a bunch of people running this country right now who um are not in touch with current reality. They're about 40 years behind reality, you know. Absolutely. But beyond that, you know, I I gotta say, I I I I don't disagree with any of that. I find myself very disappointed a lot of times with um the dumbing down of society in general, and you know, that does make me sad. On the other hand, you know, I I try to be the eternal optimist, and one of the things that I you know one of the reasons that I love teaching is because when I teach, I see both sides of it, and I see that yeah, there's a lot of a lot of young people for whom this has become the standard, the reality of like, you know, not being, shall I say, savvy enough to understand what's real and what's not. But I will say that there's a hell of a lot of young people out there right now who are still smart, who are still resourceful, and who look at all of this stuff and their first impression is basically, oh, okay, I see what this is now. One of my favorite phrases when I talk about an artist is, oh, here's a cool piece of technology, how can I break it? I mean, just tell me tell me what you intended to, or better yet, don't tell me what you intended this for, because I'm gonna take it, I'm not gonna read the manual, you know, and and this coming from somebody who wrote a lot of manuals in my. But, you know, it's like I I'm the first one to say I try not to read the manual because if I can approach it from, you know, there's something called the beginner's mind. There's a concept, you know, and I've always believed in that. And it's another thing that I got out of this therapy. It's the whole idea of approaching something as if it's your first time, even if it's not. And I love that. That's great. You know, that's uh, I mean, if you can do that, if you can get to that headspace, you can achieve things that were not necessarily what was intended. And that is the same thing, you know. If I take a tool like AI, or you know, even if I take a if I take a synthesizer, if I take some instrument that, you know, the the it's usually been designed by an engineer or somebody who is extremely left-brained, you know, because you have to be in order to design this stuff. But if I approach it fully right-brained, if I approach it from a from a uh a sense of I don't want to analyze this, I just want to see what I can do with it. Just throw it against the wall and see what sticks. And there's plenty of that among young people right now, and I gotta say, man, that's that gives me hope. That's awesome.

Joey Stuckey 1:13:33

I'm so glad to hear that. Yeah. Well, I think that's beautiful, and and I I really like that idea. Um, and some of the greatest inventions that we have in the music space are are, you know, I mean, um, we spent all this time trying to get the amps not to distort, and then we're like, okay, well, now I want it to distort, but I want to control it. You know, it's like, yeah, you know, it's like I think that's great. So I mean, I I think that's wonderful to hear. And and you know, I I appreciate um, I really appreciate your perspective because you've you've got such a wealth of uh of of experiences, and and boy, that's isn't that what life is about is is just uh experiencing all these different facets and and able to draw on it. Yeah, yeah. So I so listen, in in uh in in closing up here, we've we've when we've covered a lot of ground. Is there anything you want to talk about that we hadn't talked about? Is there anything you want to share that people need to be part of? Um, you know, what's what what else is going on in that brain of yours?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:27

Oh dear God, it's a dangerous place, man.

Joey Stuckey 1:14:30

I I wouldn't mind living there.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:33

You know, oh believe me, you don't want to, man. Um it's uh it you know, man, uh all I can say is you've covered a lot of stuff here that I feel very, very passionate about. And you know, to me, man, I mean look, it takes all kinds of people to make the world up. And oh yeah, um, you know, I am never going to see eye to eye with everybody, nobody is. But, you know, if if there if there's one thing that I feel very strongly about besides curiosity, it's gratitude. You know, I mean I have lived my entire adult life basically without, you know, any kind of real like, you know, I haven't I haven't been somebody who's been at the same job for 20 years or even in the same house for 20 years, you know. But but man, you know, I am very, very grateful for everything that I have had in my life, that I do have in my life. I'm grateful for the gifts of creativity that I've been given. I'm grateful for the wonderful people, friends that I have had over the years. And man, you know, if there's one word that sums it up that I think is so important every single day, it's gratitude. Because, you know, we uh we we are all just you know, we're we're here by virtue of the universe landing us wherever the hell we landed. And uh, you know, it it it's all about what you make of it, man. It's you know, I see people all the time who are miserable and pissed off about things and stuff like that. And I get that way myself sometimes too. But you know, every once in a while, man, I gotta just pull myself down and say, you know what? Just look around you, think about all the circumstances that you've had in your life and the fact that you get to be a free-thinking, creative human being who you know gets to do all these wonderful things, man. Gratitude, it all comes down to that for me.

Joey Stuckey 1:16:42

I I could not agree more. And I want to tell you one last thing, and it's a funny story. Uh, one of the things that I have always um I don't know if regrets the right word, but uh been been uh somewhat uh frustrated by is the inability to read all the liner notes on my favorite records. And you know, and so like sometimes I don't know who the engineer is, and I don't, you know, I it's sometimes I just I don't know. And uh I want to tell you, um, you know, we we I made it a point because I love spending time in your company. It's it's a true privilege. And I made it a point during NAM, which is an absolutely batshit crazy place to be. Uh which I mean, I love it. I love it, don't get me wrong. But I'm just saying, like it's it's intense. And but I we we fought through the schedule and found time to get together for dinner. Yep, and you brought some friends along. And one of those friends was Michael Beinhord. And and Michael's been on the podcast, and uh he's uh such such an interesting fellow. He's a dear friend, yes. Well, here's so here's the crazy part. I'm sitting next to Michael at dinner, and we're having a grand old time just talking, talking, talking. And I leave with new friends, which is my goal, right? So I you know, I always want to do that. So I my my dear friend Daniel Keller is there, and then now I've got Rick and Alan and Michael Binehorn and all this stuff, and uh, we're all just having a grand old time, and you know, we all start following each other on Facebook and whatever. And I'm sitting there one day, about three weeks later, and this thing comes across my Facebook page, and it's a video with Michael Beinhorn being interviewed about making one of my all-time favorite records, which is super unknown by Soundgarden, one of the finest albums of the 90s. And I'm like, son of a this guy made this record, and I just had dinner with this guy? I couldn't believe it. It was the crazy, it was the damnedest thing. I was just like, this is hilarious. I have told Michael this story, but I just thought that was so fun. These are the kind of guys that you're hanging out with, and you know, here's this little Joey Stucky over here. I don't know who this guy is, which actually is is fine because it's better that way, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:05

Yeah, I mean, you know, I I did so many sessions like that at Cherokee and at Paramount where I'm halfway through, you know, I'm three days into a session with uh, you know, there was one guy I I did a session with, and you know, I wasn't even all that excited about the record, to be honest, uh, because it was kind of a uh quote unquote has been band, and I really wasn't a fan. And uh I'm sitting there with him. Um we're in the third day of working together, and all of a sudden it comes up, you know, I that uh he has done one of my favorite records from a band called Squeeze. And that's what else have you done? And he starts rattling off. He did all of the Nick Lowe and Rock Pile stuff. He did the first couple of Elvis Costello albums, he did all sorts of Nick Lowe stuff, and um, you know, it's like again, man, it it's it's better in certain ways if you don't know that stuff because you don't have any preconceptions, you know?

Joey Stuckey 1:19:59

Yeah. Well, it it just tickled me. I just thought it was the funniest thing. I was like, this is what you get by not being able to read the lighter notes. This is this is it. That's okay, man. But it was it was it was, and you know, one I got a chance to write a song with Ed Roland of uh Collective Soul. And uh I of course knew who he was and all that kind of stuff, and and uh uh but my wife didn't know who he was. And finally one day I said to Ed, I'm sure you remember his song, um uh the the Heaven Let your Light Shine Down tune that was everywhere. Yeah and he's got that part in the middle where it goes and he's got it's got this muffled sound on the microphone. And uh and I said, Listen, Ed, it was our end of our time together. We've been together like 12 hours or whatever. I said, Ed, before I before you leave, I've got to ask you a question. I said, Um, all of my uh colleagues in the audio industry swear that's an EQ filter. And Joey says, it's your hand over your mouth. And I want to know what the truth is. He's like, Well, you're close enough. It was a toilet paper roll. I was like, fine, it's a physical thing, not a plug-in, I win. So then uh then Jen's like, wait, you're the collective soul guy.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:06

That's funny, man, because uh, you know, I I I had that conversation with Will Turpin off camera. Oh, did you? Yeah, Will Will's been on my show as well, and and uh another great guy. Oh, wonderful. And he's got a great studio as well.

Joey Stuckey 1:21:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, I wondered about that because I was like, that's not that's not a plug-in. That's that that's some sort of physical thing. Oh, yeah. And uh, and that's and and so I was happy that I had won that argument. But then the Jennifer, you know, uh just was all like, oh my god, it's the that's yeah, I can't believe it's this guy. And yeah, we've been we've been we've been telling bad jokes all day long. My my only two claims to fame, Daniel, besides knowing you and John Crivet, uh, is is that uh I uh I I had Ed Roland make me coffee. Um so I I'm putting that on my tombstone. Also, um Alan Parsons sent me a video uh for Joey Stucky Alive Day, which is a festival we put on down here. Uh and it's the day I beat the brain tumor, and we do a free concert. Uh we pay all the musicians, we we don't ask them to play for free, but it's a free concert for the community just to come out and reconnect with music and being neighbors and all this stuff. And he sent me a very sweet message to say, hey, you know, happy alive day and so glad you're here. And he said in this video, which is on my YouTube channel, so I'm not making it up, I can prove it. Um, he said, by the way, Joey Stuckey uh has the best ears in the music business. Uh now he has said that he had said that before privately, and I asked Jenna if she had her cell phone out, and she did not. And so I was very sad. And and so then he's then he sent it to me, and I'm not saying he's right, but I'll take it. That is my grammy. Absolutely, absolutely, man. That was that was my Grammy. So he, you know, he's he was all very kind to me. I got a chance to study with him a little bit, and he actually, you know, like trusted me enough to help like start making decisions, and and uh he was so sweet to to trust my ears. And I remember my favorite other story with this, and and you probably had a story like this too, but my favorite other story was uh Vinny Calliudo was in there on drums uh tracking something, and uh, and I said, and so my what I would do is I would wait, and I Alan's you know, smart dude. I mean, you know, he he knows what he's doing. Uh he's a legend. And so I don't open my mouth unless I need to. And so I always let him um if if there's something I caught and I wasn't sure if he'd caught it yet, I would wait until we were getting ready to move on. And if he hadn't caught it, I'd say something. So I said, hey guys, um yeah, I'm not really in love with a hi-hat mic, it's clipping. And they're like, Oh, it's not clipping on the console. No, the the capsule's clipping. Uh it's it's too close to the hat. It's it's bugging me. And uh and so they're like, Oh, uh, you know, maybe so, I don't know. Let's think about it. So, you know, I just I just sort of let it. I said, Okay, well they if they're good with it, that's fine, you know, whatever. He's the boss. And uh uh and so then a few minutes later I hear this world weary sigh as Alan walks by me. I was like, What are you where are you going? He's like, gonna change a stupid hi-hat, Mike, because you don't like it. And so anyway, that's that was those those are my only claims to fame. But anyway, you need to be on the liner notes for that one, man. I you know, I feel like I should also I gave the flutes a really hard time when he did his uh recording of um the sorcerer's apprentice. Uh he he's he I I gave the flutes he said he said, You're in charge of intonation today. Okay, so because I'm I am picky when it comes to pitch, man. I am I am not I'm hard to please. Same man. And uh you know, and so I kept telling I told the flutes, I was like, man, you guys gotta push your mouthpiece in. Like this is just not working. And uh what I found out later on was somebody had the bright idea of putting the flutes in front of the timpani. Oh, so they couldn't hear is what was going on. And I could not, I could not for the life of me figure out why the flutes were so out of tune. I was like, oh my, and so you know, I can't see. So I didn't know I had no idea they were in front of Tempany. I was like, uh, we gotta move these guys. I was like, so anyway, but listen, I thank you for your time, brother. And I I'm so excited. Um I'm gonna I'm gonna share a I don't know when this uh we try to make these podcasts evergreen. We don't I don't know exactly when it's gonna go out. I I I have uh somebody else that that's their responsibility. So I I run my mouth and edit and then uh and master these things, and then that's like you put above the artwork and do all that stuff. So I don't know when this is going out, but I will say I'm getting I'm getting this year uh 2026, I am I'm getting to spend a lot of time with my dear friend Daniel Keller, and I'm so excited about it. So it's what's uh we'll be in LA together, then you're gonna be in Macon. So we're I'm excited about it. It's gonna be awesome. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:46

I'm really excited about it too. I know we're gonna do uh we're gonna do some stuff at the uh the legendary Les Paul studios very soon. Yes, yes, uh excited about that. I'm gonna get to be one of the first people in your studio when you get that new SSL console. I'm excited.

Joey Stuckey 1:26:00

Yeah, it's gonna be great. And listen, I I've talked to your wife, unbeknownst to you, uh, and she says that during the time we're together, uh, you do have to wear uh a pink tutu and a feather boa, because uh I'm blind, and it it's just only right that you have to suffer in some way uh as I suffer in some way, uh not being able to see stuff. So you're gonna have to just step up in this weird costume. Also, go go boots. I don't I forgot about that. But uh yeah, we've we've got a deal I've paid her money. Yeah, it's changed hands, it's a done thing, so just so you know. You you don't mind if I verify this with my wife, right? I mean, she signed an NDA, but good luck. I mean, you know. At least I think she signed it.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:43

Yeah, well, I I I'll tell you, uh, you don't want to see me in a pink tutu because my kneecaps are registered weapons, but okay.

Joey Stuckey 1:26:50

Oh, how interesting. I'll have to I'll have to dig different around the internet, see if we can find some of those for your podcast page. So serious, my friend. Thank you, brother. I appreciate your time so much. Appreciate your knowledge and wisdom. And uh, as I say, I'm gonna go start writing that cult Bible in uh just a few minutes. So we'll be the uh the cult of Keller is on its way. Oh, true pleasure, my friend.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:10

Thank you so much for the invite, and it's been a pleasure.

Joey Stuckey 1:27:13

And you can investigate all of our fabulous guests who have something fascinating to contribute uh by looking for Stuck on Sound where you find your podcast, or by visiting the handy URL www.stuckonsound.com.