Joey Stuckey 0:00

Welcome once again to Stuck on Sound. I am your more than averagely handsome host, Joey Stuckey, and I am so excited to have a good friend of mine on the program today, Shelby Locke. She is a talented composer, musician, and so much more. And we're gonna dive into all of that now. Shelby, how's it going?

SPEAKER_01 0:20

It's good.

Joey Stuckey 0:20

How about you? I can't I can't complain, my friend. You know, I I I'm jealous of you uh because for for many reasons, but you are in uh California where the weather's almost always good. That's true. I mean, it's either like good or mudslides. There's does it seem to be like anything in between? But you you uh you have you have beautiful surroundings and and uh we are we are here in Georgia, which is uh lovely, but it's it's it's humid and uh hot. And um being a man that probably needs to drop 60 pounds, those two conditions are not my favorite. So I'd rather be where you are where there's a nice breeze. So I wanted to talk to you today about so many things, but um, you know, you you also, another thing I'm jealous about is you're a piano player and a composer. And I'm jealous of that because uh as a blind person, everybody expects me to play piano, first of all, uh, thanks to Stevie and Ray. And uh, but uh I'm just so jealous that you can play more notes than I can. Um so I I my my maximum, you know, is usually six. Well, some some people have the seven string guitars, but I've never been able to make that work out for me. But I would ask how you got into this crazy business we call the music business, and you know what it was you that drew you in and made you want to spend you know your life making music.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Yeah, so I I started piano when I was seven. Uh and the funny thing is I actually stopped after a couple of years because I was kind of bored with it. Uh, but I started finding my way back to it another year or two later when I started composing my own music. And then of course I went back to lessons. Uh and I don't know, it just after a couple of years, I just started realizing, you know, there's really nothing else I want to do all day, every day for the rest of my life. Like, this is where I want my focus to be. I don't want this to just be a thing I do on the side. Uh and so what got me into audio though was I uh went to this music camp. Well, it's Camp Electric in Nashville. Uh it's a Christian rock and roll and worship camp. I, you know, I took keys there, and one of my instructors, uh blues and gospel musician named Tony Hooper, he looked at my songs and he was like, You really should learn how to record this yourself because this is the way the industry's going and you know it's a great source of income and you can teach other people how to record. So a few days later I went and I bought Logic Express 8. And uh now this was in 2008, and it wasn't quite like it is now where everyone and their brother has a home recording set up. It was more more unusual. Uh and so I was really not good at it for a long time. Uh and that was frustrating to not be good at something at all, and it was just it's just a lot to wrap your head around. But I kept with it, and you know, then word started getting out among my friend groups and their friends uh that I had this little home set up, and you know, it it was it was pretty humble. It was like my laptop and these terrible desktop speakers from my dad's coworker, you know, the the beige kind from the late 90s. That was my first setup. Uh and you know, a few eight AT2020s and uh m uh m Audio Fast Check Pro, really uh really basic stuff, but people started coming to me in high school, and you know, eventually I got decent at it and I started producing as well. I would make instrumentals for my artists. Uh and so by the end of high school, you know, I was doing this consistently, and I realized that recording and audio and producing was not just a means to an end at this point. It was where I wanted one of my major focuses to be. Uh and so I uh applied to the Recording Academy's Grammy Camp. Uh back then it was held in LA, New York, and Nashville, and it's this summer music industry intensive. They only take like a hundred-something high school age musicians and you study your career track super intensely. So they selected me for audio engineering to go to LA and New York, and that just really confirmed, yeah, this is it. Like, this is what I want to do, and they kind of they show you how to make it happen, how how you go from this dream to reality. And so that landed me eventually at Belmont University, Nashville, and I pursued a BS in audio engineering and a BM in music composition. And you know, it was really interesting because pretty much everyone was discouraging me from pursuing two degrees at the same time. And kind of for good reason. I mean, it was it was a that is a lot.

Joey Stuckey 5:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Yeah, I I graduated with 200-something credits. I mean, it was probably not the best for me, but uh but it launched my career because I ended up in grad school at the Chicago College of Performing Arts on an assistantship for my MM and composition, where I was in charge of the electroacoustic music studios, and I was collaborating with a company called Atlas Arts Media that had the contract to record all the concerts at the School of Music, but I was responsible for the composition department once. And so we got to know each other over that first year, and eventually, you know, at that point those guys were completely self-taught engineers, they were musicians, they hadn't come up how I had, and you know, they saw how I worked, they heard my work, and they said, you know, we really could use a lead engineer here that has a degree in this and really knows the full technical side. And so they hired me, and you know, that was my first real gig outside outside of academia in in uh audio that was consistent. And so that that launched my career. I was getting more and more classical clients and eventually building up my own clientele remotely. And so that's basically how I landed here where I am today.

Joey Stuckey 7:18

Yeah, so so you were you were in Chicago for for how long? Because that because I know you have a history there and you actually uh if I'm not mistaken, you're still part of the Recording Academy Chicago chapter.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Yeah, I was only there for a year, uh, but you know, it was a pretty significant year for me. So uh yeah, I'm I still have a lot of my uh work comes remotely from Chicago, so I'm very much connected there. Uh it's only recently that I've become equally connected out here in the Bay Area. So it just made sense to join the Chicago chapter because that's that's where all my connections were back when I lived in Virginia, especially, because I I had no clients in Virginia at all.

Joey Stuckey 8:07

I I love that you I mean I think this is really exciting, and I'm gonna give a shameless plug from the Recording Academy here, because uh I love that you started with them and Grammy U. And then, you know, you you now are a a governor uh on on the Chicago chapter. Um I mean that is a wonderful story of of like giving back. Like, you know, you you got you got something and now you're giving back with leadership and and that kind of stuff. And I just think that's awesome because it it you know you really can make a difference. Um you know, and I I think if you love something and you want to see it flourish, or if you love something that have concerns and you want to see those addressed, I mean the way to do that is is to be on the inside and to to to give back in service. So I think that's fantastic. And you know, I do the same kind of thing here in the the Atlanta chapter, which we're responsible for, Georgia and Alabama. Um, every state, as you know, doesn't have its own chapter, but I think that's very cool that that you had that journey of Grammy U camp and then like ended up serving in a significant role in the recording academy. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Yeah, there's more and more of us who have had this. Like Marin Morris, she was at the very first Grammy camp, and of course now she's won multiple Grammys and served as a governor. So it works.

Joey Stuckey 9:32

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And and now your your music, when you when you kind of you you were playing piano and then you took a break because you're like, I'm kind of bored, and then you were inspired to write your own music, and that is what really ignited your true uh you know vocational attachment to music. Like what kind of music do you do you consider that you create? Like what what what style, what genre are are you uh when you compose, or or do you do multiple things?

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Yeah, I I do multiple things. I mean I usually call it contemporary classical at this point. But some of my earlier solo piano music is really not super classical. It's like a blend of classical and new age with some jazz harmonies thrown in. It it's hard to categorize it really, but my more recent work is definitely classical, I would say, and the music I composed in school.

Joey Stuckey 10:32

And and I mean, who were your influences? You know, I mean, there are so many amazing piano players. I mean, do you draw more inspiration from like uh performers or or composers? I mean, where do you where do you find most of your inspiration coming from when you're when you when you work on your own stuff?

SPEAKER_01 10:50

I'd say a bit of both. I mean, growing up, my parents liked to play George Winston. So if you're familiar with his work, there's definitely some influences there. But being classically trained, I also draw from composers like Rachman and off and Chopin and Dabuse. Those are probably my three favorites.

Joey Stuckey 11:13

I love this because as far as I'm concerned, Gabus is a jazz musician. That's just how I feel about that. I mean, but but but I love the sort of bombastic uh nature of Chopin. I just I love how powerful uh it is and and and just the the strength of the compositions and and the use of the tone of the piano and and you know all the different sort of colors um that that those compositions pull out of the instrument of the piano. Um that that's so those are those, I mean, you hit two of my favorites right there. And Rob Monot was also awesome, but uh, I just WC to me is just yeah, that's good stuff. I don't you're you're probably too young to remember this, but there was a guy named Tamita that did electronic music, and he did a whole record of um WC on like synthesizers and stuff. So um that was very cool. I don't know if you've ever heard that stuff, but if you have it, you uh you should check it out. It's it's I don't know how to I don't know how to spell it because I'm a terrible speller. I would like to blame that on being blind. I'm not sure that's true, but we're gonna do that. We're gonna say I'm a bad speller because I can't see to read. Uh so um, but but yeah, it's it's absolutely amazing. He also did like Holt's uh 12 uh planets and or 12 uh the planets uh not 12 planets, the uh the planets uh symphonies and all on synthesizers, which is pretty cool. Um, do you ever stray outside of the the actual acoustic piano playing? Because I know you have a a baby grand, and and I know, you know, I know you've got a very cool studio, which we need to definitely talk about. But do you were you ever bitten by the the synthesizer bug, or do you prefer to just play strictly acoustic instruments?

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Oh yeah. I mean, it's been a little while, but when I was in Nashville, I I played keys and various bands, you know, main mainly church bands, so it was you know actually mostly synthesizers at that point.

Joey Stuckey 13:08

Nice. Do you have a collection still or or did you did you put those away? Did you just use like plugins or do you want the real thing?

SPEAKER_01 13:15

No, I just I just use software instruments or the stock instruments on the keyboards.

Joey Stuckey 13:21

That's see, you're you're you're a wise woman because if I were a decent piano player, which I am not, I am what's called low side of adequate, and that's probably being generous. Um I would want all the original synthesizers. I'd want a whole like houseful of them. Yeah, I'd be collecting them all over the place. They'd be from the floor to the ceiling, you know. I I just uh oh I just got that collector bug, you know. It's just I like to collect stuff, um, you know, from rubber ducks to microphones, I'll collect them. Um the the other thing is let's talk about your studio because um my wife uh has seen um pictures and says it's absolutely like just so cool looking and and so gorgeous. And you know, as a blind person, that's hard for me to um process, but it is very important if you are going to have a space for people to be creative and to record them. It is very important to have an aesthetic and have a feel and a vibe and you know be able to make people feel comfortable, not only with the right technology, but with with the right, with the right look and the right feel, and you know, all those things can really contribute to the to the creative process. So tell me about your studio and when you when you actually opened your own uh place.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Yeah, I uh opened it when I moved out here to California a couple of years ago, and I didn't know that was gonna happen. Uh it just my brother and his family were already in San Francisco, and then my dad got a job in you know, Silicon Valley, and so it was just well, everyone's gonna be out here, my parents, my grandmom, my brother. So being in Virginia really wasn't surfing me. I I had to move back in because I got sick, which I guess we'll talk about in a few minutes. But so I I tagged along to California and finally I had a space that I could actually bring clients into. And in Virginia, it was you know the classic former bedroom turned into uh workspace. But here, you know, then I had this room, it's 25 feet by about 15 feet. It's got this vaulted ceiling, and one of the walls is almost entirely windows, and you see the Santa Cruz Mountains in the background. There's this 700-year-old redwood with like a 10-foot diameter out the back. I can see it right from my piano. So I had this great space, and finally I thought, you know, I'm just gonna go for it. I I had been saving up for years because I'd, you know, hoped someday I'll I'll have the space. And so I I just went for it. And I decided, you know, this is my space, and I'm not gonna follow what people think it should look like. I I I feel like there's this expectation that it has to be kind of dark and has to almost be like a cave. And you know, I I said no, I'm I'm gonna make it full of all this natural light, and it's this nice blue kind of to uh call back to the fact that the ocean is here. You you can actually see the ocean as you leave the studio. Wow. Off off in the distance. I mean it's like a few miles away. And so yeah, and I also made it fully wheelchair accessible, which so many studios aren't, and they often think that they are, but they're not. Like there's always some area that has a raised platform, and I don't have any of that, and I have a ramp going into it. And yeah, so and and then the highlight is the Yamaha C7 grand piano that I have here. It's seven and a half feet. And so I specialize in classical and acoustic music.

Joey Stuckey 17:17

And you you you've you don't have a if I if I remember correctly, you don't have a sort of control room. Everything is kind of one uh big open space.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

Yeah, it it's all just one room. I you know, there is a basement attached to it, and originally that was going to be the separate mixing room, but the live room turned out so nice and it has all this natural light, and I just thought I I'm not gonna put it in the basement. I'm I'm not gonna do that. This is great, and that way when I record piano myself, because I I do do a lot of remote session work, I'm not going up and down the stairs, I'm just going a few feet over.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Yeah, and it it works pretty well, and it's really easy to communicate with the artists that way when they come in. So it yeah, it it works.

Joey Stuckey 18:09

And and and then you you are um what like are are you obsessed with uh with the microphones? Because I may have a problem. Maybe the intervention because I want them all. But what what kind of what kind of stuff do you bring to your because your room, I haven't been there, but it sounds like it's a cool acoustic space, and it sounds like it you could really capture some interesting things there. So what what are you using to to bring out the best of your room and and and capture your clients?

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Yeah, I I don't have a huge mic locker because I was trying to make the mistake that a lot of or not make the mistake that a lot of studios make, which I think is invest in too much gear at the beginning and then take on more debt than you can pay off in a l very long time.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

So I have uh I have as much mics as I need, basically. Uh and on the piano, yeah, I'll use a match pair of AKG C414s and uh uh AEAR84 under it to get more of the low end. Uh and I also have a Neumann TLM 49 and uh oddly I have uh I have a pair of Rode NT5s, and it it's funny because I feel like people expect the 414s to be, you know, really good on guitar, and they're they're a lot more expensive, and I have yet to put it in front of a guitar and have the 414s sound better than the NT5s. So yeah, go figure. They have this nice high sparkle without being harsh.

Joey Stuckey 19:50

Well, and you know the the the thing is, I mean, I I I am I'm not kidding what I say that I want all the colors, I want every microphone, you know, I'm not that is true, and I really do have a problem. But uh that being said, I mean, the real truth is know your room, know your gear, and you can get amazing things with very little. I mean, that's that's the truth of it. I mean, you know, as much as I like, you know, all the all the fancy tools that I do, um, but and I I somehow, as a blind person, I still gravitate to the most expensive thing in the room. Can't see it. The shiny doesn't affect me. And yet I somehow always always find that. And uh, I was over at uh uh Harman HQ in in uh LA and and uh being shown around and they were just like, hey, we've got some new uh AKG mics coming out, and why don't you talking to these or singing to these and tell us which one you like the best? You know, just just kind of give me a tour. And and I I did, and of course I was like, here's my favorite. Like, yeah, that's the most expensive one. I was like, of course it is, of course it is. That's that's just how I roll. But anyway, yeah, I I love I love that you've got what you need. Uh 414s are always an excellent choice on piano. Um, a nice ribbon mic is uh always a good choice. I mean, that's yeah, it's always a nice color. So you you definitely have what you need. And I know um that we I'd like to talk about this because uh speaking of microphones, you have been doing some new music of your own um and um getting an orchestra to to to play with with that, and also I think you've recorded uh your piano um with Atmos in mind. So tell me about that project.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Yeah, uh so my my latest piece, it's called A Matter of Time, Perseverancia, which means perseverance. Uh and it's a collaboration with the Venezuela Strings recording ensemble. And so I recorded the piano here and they recorded the string orchestra down in Venezuela. And so I I recorded it with Atmos in mind. I used a 10 mic immersive array, uh, which is 10. is the maximum number of channels that I have at this point, because again, I I have what I need and not a lot more. Uh so yeah, I basically just mic'd up the whole room. I had the usual close mics on the piano and I had mics uh at the back of the room. I had, you know, the rear height mics that I put the NT5s there and the Neumann was in the back at your height. Uh and I had some AKG C 114s. Those were the side mics halfway in the room like halfway towards the end of it. Uh and and then I had blue bluebirds up as the front height mics above the piano. And I'd never recorded for Atmos before and so I I wasn't sure how it would go but it it folded down to stereo really well. So I yeah I was I was very pleased with the sound. It it all worked together to sit really nicely with the strings once I got them. So yeah I I was uh that was that was a lot to manage 10 mics but it was it was good I'll I'll be doing it again for sure.

Joey Stuckey 23:21

Well not and and with the strings are you mixing anything yourself like at your studio or are you going to another studio to mix or or I mean how do how are you doing that how are you listening to the Atmos um setup? Because that's that's the kind of expensive part of that's the speakers. So are you using headphones or what's your what's your process?

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Yeah so I I actually haven't done the Atmos mix just yet. Okay I just started with stereo I I'm probably gonna bring in someone else who specializes in Atmos for for this project. I'm I'm just getting into it right now so I want someone who specializes in it because I know they know what they're doing. So I so I just mixed it in stereo and whoever mixes it will mix it from the stems.

Joey Stuckey 24:07

Gotcha, gotcha. I mean that that's the thing is like you know Atmos is really cool but it's it's cost prohibitive for most of us. I mean it's just like I mean you know all those speakers and uh you know and and and you know of course again me being me you know I don't want the basic one I want I want all the speakers I want I want the you know 25 immersive speakers not not like you know 7.4.2 or whatever you know I'm gonna I'm gonna have all of them. So anyway yeah I and you know uh sadly um you know um Atmos is not accessible for the blind at the moment which is um uh kind of a bummer because that's we we think in 367 that's kind of what we got and uh it's a shame to sort of be locked out of that it's hopefully going to change there's there's some talk of uh some accessibility with logic in the immersive space but uh certainly not at most that there's the logic version of that but um you know there's there's some there's some talk about that change but so far uh nothing nothing super exciting but let's talk about how you and I met which is because we um are both uh recording academy members and we're also uh audio engineering society members um and invest a lot of our time and effort in those organizations because they they really can make a profound difference um for people I think they're they're great networking but they're also great resources for change in the industry in general and we serve on uh the accessibility subcommittee which you started and tell me about your journey um you know moving into sort of disability activism and and how that all came about yeah it it started I guess it was seven years ago at this point uh I got this virus I still don't know what virus it was because this this was pre-pandemic and it just wrecked me it attacked my immune system and nervous system and so I I became a wheelchair user and I was also really sick in the beginning like I spent eighteen hours per day lying down that's that's what I had to do and so suddenly I was kind of locked out of the industry and I I literally couldn't get a foot in the door in so many studios because of the inaccessibility and instead of just sitting back and doing nothing I I decided you know I'm gonna I'm gonna speak up about this because not enough people are and unfortunately that's kind of the experience when you're disabled like you you just have to become an advocate whether you want to or not in order to access things.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Yeah so I I started I started the accessibility subcommittee a few years ago and that one the goal was mainly to make the audio engineering society more accessible and then hopefully have it spill over into the greater audio and music industry and eventually I joined the Recording Academy as a governor later I got elected and so I advocate for accessibility there too through their dream network. And yeah I I just I I just thought you know if this bad thing had to happen to me I'm gonna use it to do something good.

Joey Stuckey 27:39

Absolutely absolutely and and that's you know um when when I was going to school and uh the formative years um I had a a brain tumor um so that took my eyesight took my sense of smell uh but it also took my endocrine system so for example I don't make adrenaline and and some things like that. I don't have any real uh glandular functions of any kind everything I have that my glands are supposed to produce I have to take synthetically which is a real challenge because uh what you really need is biofeedback if you oh I'm tired more adrenaline but that isn't I don't have that ability and to take the medicines that I take um to replace the things I don't have also does a number on your bones and on your stomach lining and all these fun things. And um but there was no ADA um when I was growing up I mean there was there was nothing and it was really well I mean you know you you just had to step up I mean there was no there was no choice um and we you know my parents and I had to fight for access to education and all these things. Even though I was a really bright child and and had you know all A's and you know all this stuff um you know tested in the 98th percentile 99th percentile with SATs and all this stuff it was like getting getting you know a space just to have the opportunity to learn uh was a a real challenge and um and and I've always had to create you know what I what I needed it was never really there. So uh I I I'm well aware of this this uh struggle and I think you have a real poignant you know point is that you've got to you know what you what you know what are you gonna do you either either you set back and let life roll over you or you stand up and go well something has to change I guess I'll change it. So you know I mean that's that's the thing. And and and I think that's so powerful too because we've we've worked um together for I don't know two years or something like that. And uh you know bringing some some uh accessibility um focus to the to AES uh we just had our first uh like a full accessibility conference um in 2026 was was the first one uh and we before that we had done some other uh stuff where accessibility was part of the programming but wasn't the the whole conference so uh certainly uh you know made some progress you know we made some we made some progress getting the you know getting the word out and uh and you know and and what I you know that's the thing I mean you know I I have you know sort of crumbly bones and um and so uh take medicine for that too but um you know I I thought and and this is I think you'd agree on me why what you and I and others in the committee are doing is so important. If it's not your lived experience to have some kind of you know disability barrier then you know it it's it's somewhat understandable that you haven't thought about that. So if if you're not blind, you know it may be that that that you wouldn't realize that a blind person for example can't use a mouse on a computer. And I had made the error in judgment that uh you know I knew that there were ramps, I knew that there were rails and I thought oh my brothers and sisters who wheelchairs are taken care of how wonderful but then I ended up in a wheelchair for seven months because of some of the bone issues I was talking about and realized that they did not have the access that it appeared like like it it looked like there was access but you know probably 70% of the stuff didn't fit meet the code and you know didn't didn't provide real accessibility. And so I realized you know how important it was to talk about that um and and to make sure people knew but just because there's sort of this veneer of accessibility doesn't mean that it's really there. And uh and so that's that was really important um for me to kind of realize that that talking about my lived experiences so with this disability was an important thing to do. I've been doing it as far as a blind person, but now to to think about the the greater you know disability uh community as a whole and and and trying to understand what that means and you know what what needs are there. And so you know you and I have been part of uh a recording academy project um with this particular idea was the brainchild of our good friend Audrey um and uh so she started an accessibility document and uh and we sort of came up with some best practices that would allow people to uh be educated in in ways to make things truly accessible and and you have done something uh really remarkable that that I was not aware of and I want to talk about that because this is really you know this is really important so you you um you sometimes have to use a wheelchair and and sometimes don't um I I get I think it kind of depends if I'm not mistaken it just some just depends on the day um but one of the things you have to do is protect yourself uh you know from getting sick uh you know with with just just uh air that's not good or or or environments where there's a lot of germs passing around and so I know you mask up in public um I'm I mask up like on airplanes and stuff but I'm using like an N95 you you've got something even better than that but one of the things that you have opened my uh eyes to and my mind to is the the way we can actually work with our air filtration system to improve not only people that you know have immune issues but improve the air quality for everybody. So talk to me about that because you're you're like a bit of you're sort of my guru when it comes to when it comes to this stuff. So like tell let's let's let's let's tell some people about what we what can be done uh in in and just making the air better for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Yeah I I have a term for this I'm calling it clean air accessibility uh which I define as an environment with optimal air quality to maximize performance and minimize transmission of airborne infections. And this is an area that really just isn't being considered. It's like we learned nothing from the last six years. You know there's increasing awareness of other forms of accessibility even with a long way to go. But this one is not considered and so it's important because we we shouldn't accept that getting sick all the time is normal or just okay because you lose time off work and a lot of people are immune compromised and that includes so many people. It's people who have cancer, people with autoimmune diseases, even diabetes, like there's so many health conditions that put you at an increased risk for infections and consequences of them. And so we actually have the tools now to minimize transmission of viruses significantly and for the most part we're kind of not doing that. So when I opened my studio I decided you know I I need it to be safe and I I need to not be putting my health at risk to be bringing clients in here. And so the most important thing is the air filtration and I have MERV 16 filters which is hospital grade filters I think 99% of pathogens. And then another important part about air quality is the amount of air changes per hour. How many times does the air in a room get replaced every hour? And so the higher the number the better the air and I I get about six air changes per hour which exceeds CDC guidelines of five air changes per hour. And so I I have this amazing air quality and it's all it's almost like outdoor air in here when the system is going. And I can actually run it constantly when clients are here and I I have it fully acoustic ductwork all the way from the air vents in here to the central fan and it's like imperceptible to listen to it. Like the computer fan is a lot louder and even that is very soft because they've got this new Mac Studio you can't even hear it. So that helps that you can run it all the time and that's that's like a big concern I think for a lot of studios especially home studios because HVAC is can be very loud and so people have to turn it off when people are here which is exactly when you need to have it on. Exactly yeah yeah and so I just designed it with clean air accessibility in mind from the beginning and that yeah that's the simplest thing. Well the most important not always the simplest uh and also you want to be bringing in enough outside air uh because if it's the same air constantly recirculating even if you have really good filtration it gets stuffy and rebreathing used air essentially that causes a decline in cognitive function when the uh carbon dioxide levels get high enough and it leads to decreased performance and uh you know having trouble staying awake and just not thinking clearly making questionable mixed decisions potentially and so you also have to have an it's called an outdoor air exchanger in in your central HBAC so that you bring in outside air, fresh air but what's cool about that is that if if you don't have that in your system, what you can do is just open a window and of course you can't do that in a recording area necessarily but it doesn't matter you you open a window anywhere in the building and it has the same effect you're you're bringing in fresh air at that point. So that's like one of the basic things I recommend people do if there's a building anywhere in their studio uh a window anywhere in the building where their studio is. And so my uh CO2 levels here uh you know anything below 800 is considered good for reducing respiratory virus transmission and my levels are anywhere from like 480 to you know upper 600 uh parts per million and and that's when there's multiple musicians in here usually when clients are here it's like 550 uh which is very very good so I I I feel very safe when people are coming in to record.

Joey Stuckey 39:07

I I love this and and you know I'm sure that it's it's probably there's probably some expense that that uh that goes with with with you know sort of pimping your your air filtration system but I mean it it it's it's definitely worth it and um you know it's it's something that I'm exploring uh myself after getting to know you and and that I I really want to do that and um and it's you know I don't I don't get s more sick than most people in other words I you know get sick about the same amount of as the average person but for me with all the the um things that I don't make and adrenaline and stuff like that when I do get sick it's it's it's a lot harder on me it's it you know it puts me down for longer it you know it and you know I I'm I just every year I just trying not to get sick during Grammy week during NAM I mask up and yeah you know I still usually get sick. So you you try so hard but you know there's all these all these places and all these people everybody shoved into these small spaces and there's loud music you you can't hear and it's just it's wonderful but it's it's also not uber healthy. I mean it's just you know um but do you I may be asking you a question you don't know the answer to that's totally fine but like how do you source like if people want to work on you know getting their air you know more pure like how where do you source these these these things? Like do you go to a HVAC uh people and have it specially installed? Is it something you can do yourself? I mean what's where do you find the resources to really dig into this stuff?

SPEAKER_01 40:47

Well for central HVC yeah you have to hire someone and uh the only thing I'll I'll say about that is that some systems can't handle higher filtration grades. Only only specialized systems can have a MERV 16 like I do because it it increases resistance from the air so it has to be stronger. But most modern systems can handle MERV 13 filters and so you don't have to hire someone to retrofit if you have a modern system they'll they'll accommodate a MERV 13 and that's kind of the bare minimum because lower filtration grades actually aren't filtering any kind of viral or bacterial particles. And if you have a lower grade filtration, you know, sometimes you're actually just spreading virus throughout the building because it's just pushing air it's not actually cleaning the pathogens. So yeah you just have to look up the specs of your system to figure out for sure if it's MERV 13 and you know most modern systems you can just do it. You don't need any retrofitting so that's that's like the minimum I recommend people do.

Joey Stuckey 42:04

Yeah and that's I mean I just think that's such a key point because I mean the fact of the matter is you know like it or not um health is something that we we don't pay enough attention to and once it's gone it is hard to get back if if if possible to get back at all. And it's it it you know why you would not want to be as healthy as you can and as virus free as you can and you know you know all these things I don't know. I mean I'm sure there's you know some cost involved and what would be wonderful is um you know if there was some sort of uh uh program with with the federal government or something that would give you some sort of uh incentive to be able to make your make your filtration system better because that would actually reduce the uh load on the healthcare system so there's just nothing but benefit benefit benefit uh but anyway yeah so that's I won't preach too much but I'll just say I think it's I think it's well worth investigation. And there's there's something else um that you told me about I don't tend to really fully understand it that's new um that uses like some ultraviolet stuff. And uh um I mean I know that that's that's something new you've been looking into um and I I you know is that is that something have you have you done that yet are you still looking into that system?

SPEAKER_01 43:21

Yeah there's a new technology called FARUVC and it's pretty cool because it's silent and it kills a lot of pathogens instantly and so but it unlike other UV which has been used in buildings for many decades you can shine it directly into the room and it doesn't harm skin or eyes. And so now the only thing about it is you do have to have air flowing constantly so that it's able to reach all the air basically but it's amazing because it can be equivalent To up to 184 air changes per hour.

SPEAKER_02 44:04

Whoa.

SPEAKER_01 44:05

Yeah. And you know, and the CDC minimum is five air changes per hour.

SPEAKER_02 44:10

So I mean this is the future.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

And when we finally get to the point where we have FARUVC in every public space, we'll have so much less thickness and it's going to change everything. I unfortunately don't have it yet because it is expensive. That's one reason it's not been widely adopted. A big lamp that will cover a large space runs from about $800 to $2,000 depending on the unit. But the good part about that is you don't have to do anything to your HVAC system. You can just put one of those or two of those in your space. And part of why I haven't done it is just because my filtration situation and my air changes are just so good.

Joey Stuckey 45:02

They're good already, yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

But I I may add that eventually.

Joey Stuckey 45:11

You never know. You never know. A fan might might say, hey, here's here's some money. Um well so what is the what is the what is the uh what is the thing that you like the best as far as you know the music space? Like I mean, do you find your your yourself composing the most or do you find yourself engineering the most? Where where have you really found your niche? Like what what is it that you do on a regular basis that uh allows you to eat?

SPEAKER_01 45:40

Yeah, I mean mostly most of my income is from audio work. Uh and I'd say I'm equally passionate about that as I am about my own music. And so a lot of what I do uh is remote mixing and mastering work, and I I work with people from all over the world. And then I I have local people, regional people come in to record, and and then I get to mix and master that also. Uh, because there's like eight million people in the Bay Area, so I hope pretty steady clientele.

Joey Stuckey 46:19

That was great, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:20

Yeah.

Joey Stuckey 46:20

And now I I have to ask, I'm gonna ask you two questions as our time starts to to uh run out on us. I want to ask, and and uh this is uh this is a question, but I'm sending it to you because I think you're very thoughtful and and and uh and I think you're very interesting, so I think you'll have a good answer for me. Uh so no pressure. Uh but but uh this is what starts brawls at uh audio conferences. In in the acoustic music space where you are you know doing recordings that really have to be pure, you know, and and really have to you know transmit the the the sound of the instrument. Uh you know, you're not relying on a lot of electronic filtering, you're not you know, that kind of thing. Um what what bit depth and sample rate do you like to record at? Because there's a lot of people that say it doesn't matter. There's a lot of people that say it matters for certain genres. Um as someone who is recording, you know, with this gorgeous room and you know, even doing some you know, you know, recording for Atmos and all these sort of things, what is your thought on bit depth and sample rate, like what you like to do?

SPEAKER_01 47:31

Well, it's always 24-bit. Uh and then sample rate, most of the time it's 48, because I mean 96 is twice as much disk space, and it it really adds up over time, especially now with how expensive storage has become.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:51

Uh and a lot of my plugins have built-in up sampling, so I'm not super concerned about it. I I will record at 96 sometimes. Well, always if if it's requested. Uh but most mostly 48.

Joey Stuckey 48:10

I I think I mean honestly, I think that's totally fine. I mean, you know, uh there there are there are people that talk about um, you know, well when you're recording at 96 or 192 or whatever, you know, these are real important for classical um recordings where there's a lot of dynamics and there's you know a lot of maybe a lot of instruments. Uh there are folks that say that you know, uh, even though you it's recording information that we can't hear, it's affecting the partials that we can hear. Um, you know, so there's a lot of a lot of discussion about that. But I think you know, if you're if you're uh if you're mixing acoustic music that really has to be right, there's no there's no real way to fudge that, you know, and you've you're you've got these natural sounds, and you you have to you got I I I would assume, you know, since you've got a cool room and and all that, that you use a lot use you know, use some room mics and stuff on a regular basis. So if you're if you're doing 48, that's probably that's probably good. That's that's probably that's probably sufficient.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

What I'll add to that too is for most people, especially people just starting out, your sample rate is the least of your problems. Like yeah, I mean your your space and your equipment has a much bigger impact on the overall sound. So for people just getting into it, I'd say just worry about everything else before you think about for you know, 48 versus 88 versus 96.

Joey Stuckey 49:37

I I started recording um well, I was when I started, I mean it was digital tape, you know. I got started in the 90s, and uh so it was all digital tape, and um you know that's that's what we had was we had 44 uh.1 or you could do 48, but but then your tapes would last for like half the amount of time. Um, you know, so I never did that. I was like, what's the point of that? Um it just it was just it was it was really a resource you know issue. It was like, well, I'm gonna use up double the amount of storage, and these tapes aren't cheap. So you know, the clients are my clients don't want to pay uh for extra tape and all that kind of stuff, so we're just gonna do the you know the the 44.1, that was fine. And that's you know, that's the that's sort of the the low and lowest end of the spectrum. But um, I will say, like, I eventually started when I got drugged into using the computer, which I didn't want to do. Um, and the reason for that was pretty simple because the accessibility wasn't there. Uh, you know, the tape machine, I can push the button, you know, records, you know. Uh so it it was that was important for me. Um, you know, the machine had all the physical buttons that I needed to do what I needed to do, and there was no digital editing. Um, so I finally got drug into the computer world, and uh and for a long time I just recorded at 44 uh one, but I um got a chance to study with Alan Parsons and um and and to even be of some service to him as uh as an assistant and some things like that. And um, you know, he he at that time when we met, he was recording at 88.2 because he felt like that was the best sound with the best file size trade-off. Uh so I started doing that for no other reason except that Alan Parsons was doing it. That was the only reason I had. That was that was like that was good enough, and I'm still doing it. Um, although I understand he's moved, I think he's he's moved to a higher uh higher uh sample rate, but I'm not going to because the file size is ridiculous. So so you know, unless the client specifically asked for it, that then you know I'll do that. Um the other thing though that I want to talk to you about, and I you're you're a friend of mine. Uh you are uh a brilliant uh composer, musician, audio engineer, advocate, all these wonderful things. So I'm gonna apologize to you, but I'm setting you up. This is this is a loaded question. I'm doing it on purpose. Uh I want to get your thoughts on uh generative AI as we close out our time together.

SPEAKER_01 52:09

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I you know, I I I feel like I feel like uh old person who's like doesn't want, you know, uh the the new technology, but uh I I really think it's a cop-out and I think it's stealing and I think it's lazy most of the time.

SPEAKER_02 52:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

Uh as as a classical musician, you know, I've spent like two decades on this, and now someone can just come in and they know nothing about it, and they can just write a prompt and have well, it's debatable how much you could call it music. But yeah, I mean I think I I do use AI for some things. Like a lot of audio restoration work is AI-based. It's using AI to fill in the gaps and repair noises. And there's other plugins like like uh Oak Sound Seoth. That uses some AI in it, but the the difference is it's not generative AI. And I think that makes a huge difference. And I I think it's important to distinguish between generative AI and just machine learning in general. I think machine learning has a lot of really great applications, both in audio and for greater society. I mean, they're using it to uh do scientific discoveries that humans would take a decade to do and finding new drugs for diseases. I mean, AI can be a really amazing thing, but I I just think generative AI in its current format is is theft because it's trained on copyrighted music without the artist's persist permission, and they're not getting any kind of compensation for all their training and knowledge and hard work to create these styles in the first place. And then someone just swoops in and writes a few sentence prompt and now they have a song based on someone else's work. I I just think I think we need to do something differently. And I'm I'm hoping it will work out to a process where there's consent and royalties for artists. But I I still think there's no substitute for just learning how to play an instrument and learning how to do it yourself. I I think it's just if if you want to be a real musician, that that's the only way you can do it.

Joey Stuckey 54:49

Well, it it really, you know, frankly, it's offensive because, you know, and people beat up on Spotify and Suno all the time. And maybe that's not fair, but we're gonna do it some more. Um the the truth is like, you know, when you say when Sunno says, you know, uh nobody wants to play an instrument, and why would you want to do that? And uh where's the value in that? And and uh wouldn't you rather sit on your sofa eating Cheetos and talk to this machine and tell it what you want? You know, that that is that's just lazy. And it's it's uh it's it's a dubious value because um the there was no intention behind it, really. Um you know what is it that you're what is it that you're getting? So I worry that big tech, and I'm a I'm a huge fan of tech. I'm a huge fan of technology, and I I'm a huge believer in assistive technology for people with disabilities. And so there's all kinds of things that that tech does that's awesome. But I I don't like the the sort of uh push to make you feel like you have to have uh you know everything is like you know instant gratification. If it's not, it's not it's not worthwhile. And it's like, oh, if if I can't do it with with no effort, uh a no effort society with no skills, with no with no intention, is like that's supposedly a good thing. I I just can't I can't get down with it.

SPEAKER_01 56:22

So you know what it misses the whole point of making music. They these tech bros are trying to make it about the finished product, the the finished song, like like it's a commodity. And to me, the purpose of music is the connection and the collaboration and the human connection of you know, playing with other musicians and bouncing ideas off each other. So they're they're missing the entire point. And to say that no one wants to learn an instrument anymore, you know, that sounds like that's a him problem.

Joey Stuckey 56:59

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 57:01

Yeah.

Joey Stuckey 57:02

That's that's absolutely I love the way you put that. That's awesome. Well, well let me let me just ask this because you said this, and then I'll I'll let you go. But I have to ask this question. So, you know, classical musicians um, you know, oftentimes are very much about what's written on the page and and how to translate that into a performance. Um, and then you take some jazz musicians or blues musicians or whatever, and they're more about you know, improvisation and and being in the moment and and uh creating spontaneously. Like in your process, I mean, do you do you use like both like you know inspiration improvisation along with like you know, actual compositional chops, or do you prefer to to actually just play what's on the page? Or what what is your process like with that?

SPEAKER_01 57:52

Yeah, I I guess I'm a little unusual as a classical musician because I I'm just as comfortable with Nashville numbers and lead sheets because of my time playing in bands. So I I kind of think in numbers and and lead sheets when I'm composing, and my my whole process is I just sit down, I turn on the voice memos app, and I just start improvising. And then, you know, once I start, you know, really liking what I'm doing, then I'll start putting it onto a score. But my compositional process is improvisational.

Joey Stuckey 58:32

That is so cool. I love that. I love that because I know some amazing classical musicians that can just like I mean, they can play, but if you give them a piece of paper without notation, they're like, well, what am I supposed to do with this? You know, it's like I well, you're supposed to make up something. It's like well, you know, and and that is something I think in traditional sort of classic pedagogy that you know is missing the improvisational um nature. I I think you know, you know, pre-20th century classical, um, you know, it was about the you had the composer and then you had the orchestra that was going to play the composition. But it's it seems that you know with the 20th century classical music and beyond, you know, we're we're starting to get some of those um you know looser ideas, more more room for expression and and that sort of stuff. So I think that's all for the good. Now I I will say that the other thing that's kind of interesting, in the last, and correct me if if you if you think I'm wrong here because you're you're in the classical sphere more than I am, uh, but it seems like in the last you know, four or five years, we have finally gotten the the the classical music uh uh community to accept mastering. It's like like I can remember like you know, like, but like don't don't compress anything. Don't matter, don't, you know, there's no don't don't don't uh bring the volume up, don't do any mastering to my to my classical composition. I was like, oh I I kind of need to because it's either like really, really quiet, then you turn it up, then it's too loud. It's like I mean if you want this to play on Spotify, you know, behind Led Zeppelin or whatever, then you need to do a little mastering. So so from your perspective, is that do you think that's true? You think that the classical music industry is sort of becoming more comfortable with with technology and and and modern processes?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:28

Yeah, I I think so to a large extent. And for me, when I'm doing classical, I I I do use some compression. Sometimes it's a very small amount, like a 1.1 to 1 ratio. Uh but you know, I I'm not leaving it at minus 21 LUFS most of the time because I, you know, I as a listener, I get kind of annoyed when I'm listening to something classical and I'm constantly having to adjust the volume knob. So for me, it's about the balance between how how do you make it so it's easier to listen to from a technical perspective without making it sound like you've done anything to it compression-wise. And yeah, I I think some artists are accepting a louder masters at this point and asking for it. But then I I have other artists who they somehow they hear the smallest amount and they'll they complain about anything 1.1 to 1, they'll they'll say, oh, you you use compression, don't do that. And so but then others want me to do it, so it it it depends on the artists. Uh but classical musicians are often very particular about their recordings and also which takes they want you to use. And yeah. Uh they they can be a tough customer, but I I totally respect it because I'm a classical musician and I get it.

Joey Stuckey 1:02:04

Yeah, I I I get understanding not wanting to hear the compression, like pump it and breathe it, or you know, like hear it, hear the you know, we're not trying to make it sound like rock FM radio. I mean, that's you know, best that's not the mission, but but kind of rolling off the edges to take it off the extremes is kind of where I land on that. You know, I was like, I think I think we should make it, you know, as you said, easy, you know, easier to listen to in the modern environment. Um and and and so it's enjoyable. Um so you know, you can you can listen to it on your phone and it's you know it's not so quiet that you're like, well, you know, I can't hear anything. Or you know, I like that. And and I I will say the other thing is I I've always had uh resistance uh with with with micing orchestras. I've always, you know, there's a lot of classical players that just really don't want to see the microphone on the stage. They, you know, they they really get upset uh if there's more than a stereo pair of microphones on the whole orchestra, you know, and and uh and so um I've had that conversation. I was like, well, you we can make it sound good, or you can have it the way you want to look, like you know, pick one. Like, you know, uh, but I mean, you know, the microphone needs to go where the microphone needs to go. I mean, I was like, you know, I don't know, I don't know how you expect to get a recording without a microphone, but uh anyway, that's it's it it seems to be slowly changing from that from that uh mindset. Because I know I had a client that uh had a basically we had a stereo pair of mics over the conductor. There were a match pair over the conductor's head. Um we had uh uh stereo match pairs on the different you know sections in like a XY pattern. Uh so the you know the cello section had a pair, yeah, and then we had you know a pair on the piano. And then uh I had to put one uh for the solo uh soloist uh that was a violin player. I put one mic uh at one position, and then he likes to sort of, for lack of a better word, you know, prance across the stage as he's as he plays. So I had to put a couple other mics up so that he would be covered wherever he was walking. And it just it didn't he did not care for it. I was like, well, either stand still or let me put my microphone over here so I can keep you, you know, keep you on on the recording. But uh anyway, it all worked out. Nobody killed each other. So but I just I just had to ask since you are more in the classical world than I am. Uh I mean I I I I do some of it, but that's you know not my bread and butter. Um, I I I was just interested in your perspective. Um, so I I think that's good. That's good that that uh people are starting to let us have more microphones and a little a little compression.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:52

Yeah, well, especially with Atmos, because you you can't just have one stereo pair and make a good Atmos recording in classical. I mean, you can kind of fake it with surround reaver, but i it's a much better result if you have a full immersive array. And some classical people are understanding that and accepting it a little better, I think.

Joey Stuckey 1:05:16

And do you think that Atmos is like the coolest way to experience classical? Is that your favorite way right now, or are you still happy with stereo?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:25

Yeah, I mean I don't have an Atmos rig at my studio, not not yet, hopefully someday. But when I have listened in Atmos, I I just I mean the first time I heard it, it was just kind of mind-blowing. And it it was just, well, of course this this makes sense because we hear sound in 3D. So uh yeah, I I think it's it's gonna keep growing as the as a main format, hopefully someday as as the headphone algorithms get better and better. So it's just logical uh to record it like you're actually in the room. But stereo is still still super important too, and I don't think that's going anywhere either.

Joey Stuckey 1:06:10

Not anytime soon. Yeah. I will I'll probably be seed a little or dead by the time it does. Which isn't then I won't care anymore. Shelby, it's always such a pleasure to be in your company, my friend. Is there anything that you want to share with the listeners before I let you go?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:25

No, I th I think that mainly covered it. Uh hopefully, hopefully people listen to my my piece that uh it comes out in August.

Joey Stuckey 1:06:36

And what where where can we find this?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:38

It's it's on all streaming platforms under Shelby Lock.

Joey Stuckey 1:06:42

And do you do you have a website where they can go to?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:45

Is there a Yeah, yeah. Just Shelbylock.com. Uh Shelby Lock with with no E at the end, just like lock and key.

Joey Stuckey 1:06:54

Nice. Very good. Well, I'm excited to to hear this. I hadn't I hadn't heard it yet myself, so I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna at some point say uh Shelby We're friends, I should get to hear this before anybody else hears it, and I'll I'll pull that card, you know, at some point soon. Um but I'm excited to hear it. I'm excited that you're doing your music. I think that's fantastic. And I appreciate all the work you've done in accessibility and uh always glad to be part of anything you're doing. And so uh thank you for your time today. And and you can always find someone interesting to listen to at the Stuck On Sound Podcast. You can find it wherever you like to consume your podcast or the handy URL, www.stuckonsound.com.