Joey Stuckey 0:59

Welcome once again to Stuck on Sale, the podcast that is always about interesting people. And it's uh often about good friends as well. And so this is uh no exception to that rule. So I have with me my dear friend Audrey Martinovich. She is absolutely, and I have to, I'm saying this publicly, it's on the record, absolutely one of my favorite people, and so talented, so kind. And man, let me tell you something. This is the lady that gets things done. Uh I love it. Three of my favorite things. How are you doing, my friend? It's good to have you.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

I'm I'm good. It's great to talk to you, and thank you for that incredible introduction.

Joey Stuckey 1:35

I listen, I mean it's it's all true, seriously. Um, and you know, we we have um we have been bumping around each other for for some time and um um running into each other at different events, and and I'm so honored that we be got to become uh closer friends and colleagues, and it's just such a great thing. And and you know, you you have done so many cool things, and um uh you you have uh the the the what I will call uh the passion of of music and audio in the same way that I do, which is something I recognize like the the minute we get met, because I'm I'm what I would call obsessed.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Yeah, you can't turn it off and don't want to turn it off anyway.

Joey Stuckey 2:18

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And and I've I've been so interested in every time we talk, I I you know, I I come away thinking, Audrey is so thoughtful and so interesting, and I just I love that you are doing this. And um, I I want to say, as a blind person, uh it it it uh just I don't know why, and I'm not gonna try and understand it because it's just the universe talking to me. But the fact that you have this wonderful uh pink uh hair uh is it absolutely like fits in my mind with who you are. Like I was like, oh, that of course she has pink hair. I was like, of course she does. But you just have such a uh a wonderful energy. So I, you know, we are we we both serve as uh members of the Recording Academy, um uh as as uh governors and and many other things in common. But uh before we get into what you do now, because you're you're a producer, uh, you're an engineer, you do all the basically the same things I do, essentially. Um, but before we get to all the things you're doing currently, and we try to keep these podcasts sort of evergreen so that people can always listen and then and uh and not feel like they missed out on something. But but I want to talk about how you got into this business because you know, there are um like it or not, whether people like what I'm about to say or not, that the fact is that it has been a business that has been somewhat um, I guess the lack of words, sort of uh there have been fewer women and uh people with disabilities represented in our industry. Um so I know that you probably have some interesting stories about your your path and your your obstacles uh and that kind of thing. And this is all we're all about positivity, but we also tell the truth.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

So it's no positivity without negativity.

Joey Stuckey 4:00

Absolutely, absolutely. So so I I would love to hear how how uh young Audrey fell in love with sound and music, and then how you what watershed moment brought you into the the idea that hey, I'm gonna get in the craziest business in the world.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

If only I knew what I was getting into, I still would have done it.

Joey Stuckey 4:20

Oh, we would listen, it's it's I mean, the what I tell my students is like, listen, if if you love music so much that you don't feel uh complete without it, this is for you because it's the only thing that will help help you insulate yourself from the crazy.

unknown 4:36

That's true.

Joey Stuckey 4:37

That's true. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

I don't know what I would be doing if I wasn't doing this.

Joey Stuckey 4:41

No, I mean it's it's well you're called to it. I mean, you and I tell people if I had a choice, I would not choose music, but that's not how I worked. Music chose me, and and I I do it because it's a natural extension of my spirit, and it has to, it's something I have to do. It is required of me to do this. This is this is what I'm called to do. So, you know, all the other stuff sort of takes a back seat. But you know, anyone would that was sane like, let me be a lawyer.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

You know, I don't know what regular hours and benefits and stuff.

Joey Stuckey 5:10

Oh, listen, and my cousin charges an astronomical amount of money to be a music attorney. And uh I'm like, wow, and and the sad thing is, you know, he has virtually no overhead, which really hurts my feelings. Hurts my feelings.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

It's just offensive.

Joey Stuckey 5:24

It is, man. I'm like, oh, the overhead that I have for a studio, oh dear God. Anyway.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

I know. Yeah, tell me about it.

Joey Stuckey 5:29

You know, you know about it.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

I do, yeah, yeah.

Joey Stuckey 5:31

So tell me about young Audrey and and what happened.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, yeah, like you said, I've always been really called to music and just uh grew up loving it. And my dad, you know, played a lot of music for us, and he um, you know, had an acoustic guitar that he would play, you know, at birthdays and whatever. And I remember Only birthdays. Only birthdays, the one time he'd busted up. Yeah. But he, you know, he wasn't he was like a a campfire kind of guitar player, you know, like um, but I remember being really little and like watching his fingers move and like not uh grasping what was happening. Like, how is the sound coming out of this thing and what is happening when the fingers are moving? And you know, just was really intrigued by that. And um, you know, I started getting into um, you know, in middle school, I was in band and orchestra and all the choirs and um, you know, really developed a love for um, you know, just expression through music, um, kind of through all of that. And um, yeah, in in high school, I uh, you know, I was in all of the choirs, all of the things, and I I thought, okay, I'm gonna be a music teacher. Like I really love music, I love education, I think it opens doors, like choir teacher. That's it, that's what I want to do. Um, and then I I was watching this documentary. Um uh, it was a Dresden dolls thing about, you know, just how one of her live sounds or how her live show comes together, basically. And they interviewed somebody on there called the sound designer, and he was talking about using reverb to like fill in this moment of emotion that otherwise would have just been like dead air. And I was like, Well, what is reverb? What do you mean you do that? Like what? And uh, I started researching, you know, just okay, what what is that? And found sound engineering and was kind of intrigued by this combination of art and science. And um yeah, I was just like, well, I've never done that before, so let me just do it. That's kind of how my attitude is with everything, is like, you know, tell me I can't and I'll do it five times, or you know, exactly. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And um, yeah, so I I started just kind of like poking around online. I found this school. Um, this was a little bit after I graduated high school. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Um and I found this school um in Madison where I live called uh Madison Media Institute, which is sadly no longer around. Um but at the time, you know, they taught like recording arts, graphic design, videography, video game design, like all sorts of different media stuff. It was a media institute. So um I was like, well, cool, I'll I'll check that out and I'll I'll go do that and see if I like it. And um, you know, for a little bit I was like, I am in way over my head because I had never done any kind of multi-tracking or any, you know, I've I would do the thing that I'm sure many people who grow up to become audio engineers do when they're little and they record the the radio into a tape deck and they play it back and try to make their own little radio show or whatever. I so I didn't know. We've done it. Yeah, exactly. We had it, everybody's done it. Um so I I was one of those people too when I was little. And um yeah, but that was kind of like the extent of it. And then um in in high school, I had done a little bit of recording of um my voice lessons because um at the time I was also studying classical voice. So I was um singing opera and uh lyrical music and stuff. Um a little bit, a little bit. I I'm a foray and revel kind of uh myself, I will say. I like the romantic. Uh and yeah, and so I would record like lessons and things, and so that kind of got me a little bit more interested into it. So I was like, okay, yeah, I can I can maybe go to school for this and see see what this is like. And um, you know, I was I was definitely like overwhelmed at first, but I I loved it so much that I would be at the school until the doors were locked, and then I started working security so I could be there longer. Oh, nice. Yeah, I was like going to my day job at the mall and then uh you know get done there at like four o'clock and then go to the school, and they'd have to pull me out of there at like 1 a.m. and then I'd do it all the next day.

Joey Stuckey 9:59

And absolutely, my friend. I get it.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yeah, yeah. And um, you know, it was like my first experience in any of this. And um, you know, in through college, I was the only girl in all of my classes. Um, which as now I'm I'm an educator, I'm I'm teaching music production, and so it's nice that I am seeing the that ratio change in front of my eyes, which is really cool. Like now there's there's more. I mean, last semester it was probably like almost half and half, if not quite. No way.

Joey Stuckey 10:30

Yeah, it's that is exciting. Wow, that's wonderful. What what do you I don't want to detract too much, but what do you attribute that to?

SPEAKER_01 10:44

You know, I I think it's a a a combination of things, right? Like everything is always a combination of things. So I think it's a combination of you know, gear getting cheaper and more accessible, you know, like you just, you know, uh since the pandemic, everybody kind of needed to get an interface all of a sudden. And so the Scarlets were backstocked. And so I think you know, that kind of push for gear uh now created this people who needed to learn how to use it. And then I think that naturally leads to like, oh, I can make art with this. How can I do that? And so now I I I think that the reason that more women are getting into it is because of that aspect. There's not someone to tell them that they can't do that, or even just to like imply that they can't. Because I I've had people certainly tell me, like, oh what, you you do that for a living, or you, you know, I didn't know women did that for a living, and that that kind of thing. Um, and and so there's there's people who will outright tell you that, but then there's just the general feeling of being unwelcome sometimes too. Like if you go to a guitar center or uh, you know, insert name of retailer here, not to just pick on guitar center or anything. But um, you know, if you asked for a microphone, they would, you know, be like, oh, well, you don't need that. Here's here's the the you know, ukulele's you can go over here or you can looking for a flute, right? Or you know, yeah. There's the stereotypes everywhere. And um, you know, I'm happy to experience less of that now.

Joey Stuckey 12:17

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Uh, but I I so I think that the gear becoming more accessible has just taken that element out of it. And so people can, you know, feel free to like, you know, right now I'm in my little office of my house and I could I have a MIDI controller right here and some software, you know. This whole setup that I'm talking through is less than $500, probably, and I could make a song right now if I want.

Joey Stuckey 12:40

So absolutely that's a great point.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

You're the only one in your way, and so if you're not in your own way, then make some music.

Joey Stuckey 12:48

Uh there is a t-shirt. If you're not in your own way, make some music. That's fat and pen dating.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

I love that. We should make that up for this podcast, dude.

Joey Stuckey 12:55

For real. And it should have a blind guy on the front because uh more blind people should be on t-shirts. Um yeah. I I'm actually I say that because that's that's exactly what my t-shirt is. Uh I'm gonna get a t-shirt of it. That's a shame. I I will send you one. That's a shameless one. Yeah. So so so I I'm gonna I'm gonna go back to where you were. Um I just had to get that out. So you you're you're at you're working in the mall, you're working at the you're going to the school, they're having to drag you out. Um which I think is totally appropriate. Um, and so you're continuing your journey uh into into sound recording. Well did you did you uh like when did you actually translate that passion and that education into actual like a job?

SPEAKER_01 13:37

Yeah, so even while I was in um college, I so because I was uh there all the time, um, I started getting really quick at Pro Tools and you know, understood the console of it. We were working on an SSLG series in one room and we had to tried an ADC in the other room. Oh no. Um and I was so I was just like, oh, if I do this, what happens? And if I do that, what happens if I plug this thing in here? So I got to know the rooms um and the tech pretty well very quickly. So I started um tutoring other students. So by my second semester, I was tutoring first semester students and um in pro tools and um uh and in engineering. Um and then really since then I started just trying to get more and more practice outside of school. And um, I think it was my third semester I started interning doing live sound um help, you know, I was kind of a stage runner kind of person. And then, you know, once everything was set up, they'd let me have a go at the faders just for like a song or two, you know, see if I was able to follow when the solos were happening and I could pull them up a little bit. And that is important. Yeah, it is. It so is. And I I do a lot of jazz now, so I have a deep appreciation for like understanding the communication that musicians are having on stage and then you know, having my mix reflect like what's gonna happen. I can I can kind of anticipate that.

Joey Stuckey 15:01

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Yeah. And then um when I graduated, uh, this would have been 2012, um, the owner of the studio I'm uh co-own now. So at the time I didn't know we were gonna become business partners, but he uh was looking for interns at the studio um and went to my school and was like, send me your best two people. And so they sent me and this um other guy who actually now works at Blackbird in Nashville and we're still in touch. So yeah, we both kind of went really cool places. So um, but yeah, but he showed up uh, you know, kind of looking more like a racker person, and I showed up looking more like a classical person, and because of my classical background, um I, you know, I can speak the lingo and I understand who the maestro is and all of that stuff. So um, and because um Audio for the Arts, that's the studio, um, is a primarily acoustic-based studio. We do a lot of classical, a lot of jazz. So um I just they felt I was a better fit uh for the culture and for, you know, yeah, just what they were trying to do. And um my first uh uh couple of so they had me in the studio a little bit first, and one of the projects they gave me right away was um a library of sound effects that were all conveniently named Audio One, Audio Audio Three.

Joey Stuckey 16:25

Kill me now.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

I know. Oh my gosh. Um but here's where it's kind of funny, and here's where some like little efficiency can come in sometimes. Um uh my job was to rename all of those sound effects. So they were like, okay, we want you to sit down, listen to the sound effect, rename it by based on what you hear, and we had to be specific. So like explosion isn't enough. We have to be like medium explosion with brick and glass and wood debris, you know, like try to be really um, you know, understand what is actually happening in this sound. Um, and I get through a couple of them, and then I realize it's the Hollywood Edge library, which I had a copy of. Oh so I just went through and I'm like, okay, yeah, all of these files are, you know, exactly the same length, the same size. I can see like all of the metadata. It so I just copied and pasted the the names to like, you know, just in case I didn't want to like get rid of their library in case I just stumbled on something, but like it ended up being basically a one-to-one copy. And so they were like, How did you do that so fast? And I was like, Don't tell them I'm just good at this. I don't know, homie.

Joey Stuckey 17:34

It's like Mr. Scott on Star Trek. You always leave, you let them be impressed.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Yeah, exactly.

Joey Stuckey 17:38

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Um, yeah, and then so yeah, after that, um, I started doing a lot of like remote recording um in uh tons of I've been in every church in Madison through the back door, you know, and um concert halls and all you know, uh all sorts of stuff. And um, because you know, the the guys who owned the studio at the time didn't they felt they'd paid their dues. They didn't want to like carry all the gear and do the bar hours and stuff. And I was 23 at the time, so I was like, that's fine. I don't mind doing that. Um so that was really like my first uh you know kind of professional uh work was um you know this unpaid internship, which quickly turned into um a paid part-time position doing mostly uh record uh remote engineering. And then um my degree uh that I completed a little bit after is um in business. So once that happened, I uh took over the you know logging of invoices and scheduling and all of the back-end kind of stuff and um yeah, just started started spending more and more time at the studio in any capacity and started bringing in my own clients eventually, and then we grew. So when I first started um as an intern, we were three people and uh now we're six people. So I'm it's great, and everyone's real busy.

Joey Stuckey 19:00

So I love it. I love it. And I think I think we should uh I want to pause on something here because um you know one of the things uh that I believe in is that um uh uh if you're a student or an intern, um I think that uh you should be ready to maximize you know any opportunity you get because you just don't know who it is that you're going to impress or who it is you're gonna be a solution for. You never know when that's gonna be a huge deal. So I do like to put students in positions of uh hard work and and and you know sometimes do the jobs nobody else wants to do. Yeah, totally. Because that's part of that's part of growing and learning. And my the two things that I promise, you know, students or interns is I will never ask you to do something I have not done, and I will never set you up to fail. If I if I ask you to do it, I know you're able to do it. I I'm I've got you. I am not I am not gonna put you in a position where you can't where I ask you to do something that's not within your ability. It may be new, it may be, it may be hard, it may be scary, but it will not be uh beyond your capabilities. And I think that's really important that you know people go into any kind of internship or anything else if they want to be in this business or any business really, uh to to be open to just like, you know, okay, whatever I'm throwing, I'm gonna take it, I'm gonna make it great. You know, I mean, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna maximize every chance I get. Um I think that's really important. And it's it's it took you, you know, from from school to a job. I mean, that's you know, and and and it was doing whatever was needed. I think that's awesome. And now you come in a studio with six people, that's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

That's a lot of people, yeah. I know. And some of them like, I'm in charge of all these people now.

Joey Stuckey 20:41

Oh my gosh. Well, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, that it's a big deal because um, you know, I I have uh uh I'm a you know, I have a studio in a very small uh market. Um and um, you know, honestly, like if it wasn't for the internet um and and and me for being gonna project myself further afield and then having uh the reputation I have in other places like LA or wherever, um, you know, it would be hard for me to make a living, but in this in this small market. Um but but I've been here a long time, been trying to shape the music scenes here a long time, been trying to help people a long time. But what I will say is that um finding someone that I will let uh represent the brand and the name that I have for myself is really hard.

SPEAKER_03 21:32

Yeah.

Joey Stuckey 21:32

And you know, I don't mean this in a weird way, but the truth is you're as good as your worst employee. I mean, that's that's like you know, uh and so I have had a really hard time like you know finding someone to to to to that I feel comfortable trusting my brand and my name to. So that that's a really big deal. And if you have found the talent and have been able to nurture that and give them, you know, enough you know, keys to the kingdom, basically, uh that's that's great. I mean that's that's that's that's amazing. And then you're what's your music because you're uh Madison, um, you know, I mean what I think Madison, I think, you know, butchvig and smart studio. And and and it was it was a it was a thing. But like, well what what is that what does that scene like now? It sounds like you're pretty busy, so you're kind of in that same area that you came from, right? You're you stayed essentially, you know, where you where you were formed, where you're where you became a musician.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Yeah, pretty much. Um, yeah, so uh Butch Vig actually, so Smart Studios is right up the street from or was um from where my spot is now. Um and Butch is a friend of my business partner, Buzz Kemper. So when they closed up Smart, um, we got a lot of their gear and couches and random updates and things.

Joey Stuckey 22:52

So I'm not sure I want to know about those couches.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Yeah, right.

Joey Stuckey 22:55

Butch, the less you tell me the better. Yeah, I would hope so.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Uh I won't tell you which couches. No. But yeah, I mean, yeah, my main monitors that I I use are from Smart. So um it's a it's a cool little uh connection. But um yeah, I mean the music scene I think everybody kind of expects it to not be like super poppin' because it is, you know, it's it's a capital city of a state, but it's not like you know, we've we've got what 300,000 people. I'm not actually even sure, something like that. So it's it's like a big-ish town, but it's you know, it's not like Chicago or Nashville or anything like a hub, you know, but there's still tons of of music being made here. And because of um, you know, the university um is just a few blocks away from the studio as well, um, and they bring in just some really incredible talent. So uh a lot of the professors are like, you know, jazz musicians who've toured the world and still do. Honestly, they'll take sabbaticals to go record an album in Japan. I'm just mixed one such record. So um, yeah, it's it's it's really like we're really lucky. So uh for jazz, the scene is incredible, classical, it's incredible. Um, I will say not awesome for hip-hop. Um, and there are plenty of what I think are invalid reasons for that um up here. So I would love to see that change. Um, there's a healthy like punk and indie kind of rock scene too.

Joey Stuckey 24:29

Um interesting.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Yeah, yeah. I I've heard that um, you know, that that that scene tends to do better, I think, in the recorded side of it, but not as well in the live sound side of it, because people kind of up here, if you're not playing covers, they're not super interested, especially if it's during like a Packers game or something. But Gotcha. Yeah, yeah. Um, but I mean there is a an appreciation for um, you know, collecting albums still up here too, like physical stuff.

Joey Stuckey 24:56

I I love that. And I think that's coming back because uh uh you know everybody said that, but I mean, there's a store here in my hometown that sells vinyl, and and it's actually doubled in size in the past like 10 years, you know. So um so and then and they sell they sell turntables, they sell uh they do sell some other sort of kitschy uh like um like like 90s memorabilia, 80s memorabilia kind of stuff. And you know, they got they got some they got uh they've got some other markets that that they're tapping into, but but it does look like vinyl is becoming a thing again. Um and that's that's actually, you know, I mean an interesting um thought because uh one of the things that you know concerns me at the moment is like you know, it it's kind of the Wild West again in the music business, uh especially in in the genres like rock and pop and some of that stuff. Um, you know, and you you you're trying to constantly figure out like how do I yeah, how do I get with the 700,000 songs that are uploaded every day, like how do I get anyone to pay attention? Um we'll we'll get to that because I have some questions for you on that. But when you I guess my and your the thing is uh I can tell just talking to you that you're a natural educator, which is also a calling, as some people do it. Uh and and and I have to tell you that uh without naming names or anything, like when I went to school for music, uh the main theory professor there um uh uh resented teaching um college kids theory, uh because he he thought he was supposed to be some big composer guy, and why am I not famous somewhere else and like you know, you know, and and um really didn't want to be there. And uh it was not subtle.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Then it it's to me, it's like if you why are you if you don't want to be there?

Joey Stuckey 26:40

Like well, and you know, his I think his thing was gotta eat. You know, I think that's the I mean I think it just came down to like uh I I have to teach because I'm I haven't made it. Um but but it it's sad to me anytime someone has uh talent or a resource that they don't um fully enjoy. Uh because I I think you know, and and I I will say I think I have a perspective here that's valid, which is that you know, as a as a blind brain tumor survivor, like you know, I mean, I have discovered that joy is a choice. Yeah and uh while I while I do not uh think that it's wrong to be f occasionally frustrated or occasionally upset or occasionally sad or occasionally mad, I think all those are normal human emotions and healthy. I think if I'm happy all the time, you should probably be worried. Yeah, um, you know, but but generally speaking, I think life is something you should, you know, should should take all the joy from every second you have. So it's sad to me to see someone in a position of authority and a position to shape lives that like you know doesn't understand what a privilege that is. Because I also had a a one of one of my interns when I I taught at the university system for over a decade in music technology, and one of her professors that I know literally ruined her love for music because he was just so difficult. Like, and and she she graduated, like I don't I don't want to play music again.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Oh no, and I'm like, wow that's that is that is the opposite effect that's supposed to have.

Joey Stuckey 28:14

Well, yeah, and again, it's you know, people being bitter and like, oh, why am I not I'm not famous? I don't have a Grammy. I'm uh these these things are you know, we like Grammys, that's fine, but these are not uh that's not the end result. I mean that the the award's great, nothing wrong with it.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

I don't know if anybody like sets out to come on with that as the like goal, right? Like or it shouldn't be anyway to like make a record to get a Grammy.

Joey Stuckey 28:38

It's like most people. I think you and I probably both know the same people that uh that that chase them. And uh and and and I'm not again look what no no shade if you if you want if you want to be uh a billionaire and you wanna you wanna have a Grammy, you want to have a private jet, you want to make platinum albums, that those that's fine, but but it it shouldn't be like the overriding passion. There's there there needs to be some kind of dedication to craft, uh you know so when did you I mean so here you are, you you're classically trained, which I am as well, actually, and uh, but I turned my powers to the dark side uh and and did rock and jazz and blues and all this stuff. And uh yeah, absolutely, you know, and and um and and so you know I I was trained classically in in voice and in in guitar and all these things. Uh and and honestly, I love classical music. I really, really, really do uh Debusy and Chopin and you know and Beethoven and Bach. And I always want you know, um uh I I I enjoy the intellectual uh odyssey of Charles Ives, but I I wouldn't say I liked listening to it. Uh I mean, you know, I I mean I mean I I do kind of resent John Cage. We'll talk about that later. That's one of my triggers.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Um now 433.

Joey Stuckey 29:56

Yeah, yeah. Listen, I mean, I I I I I like respect it as like art and as a thought experiment, but I don't want to listen to it. You know, I don't, you know, I don't need to hear 100 long clocks ringing or whatever. I didn't just yeah, I don't need it. I've got enough problems. But what I was gonna say is like you know, and uh and and and then what you're worried about is going on, do you hear the ringing? Do you hear the ringing? No, Joey, nobody else here's the ringing.

SPEAKER_03 30:21

Right, it stopped a long time ago.

Joey Stuckey 30:23

That's like kind of worry, a little worrisome. But but I will say, like, you know, uh, I I love that you know, here here you have this classical background, which is for sure how I got my chops. I mean, it's for sure, like the wood shedding and the you know, and and and you know, the repetition and the skills and the here's how many pull-offs can you do in 10 seconds, and you know, all this stuff. But when when did all of that and then you get into the recording sciences, but when did that translate into like you being a producer? Because I know that you've taken that role on as well. How did that how did that evolve?

SPEAKER_01 30:53

Yeah, so that has really evolved. Um gosh, over the over the last couple of years, I really turned more into producing than to um just engineering. I still, I mean, I'm still very much most of my time engineering, I'd say. But um the production uh just kind of evolved. I started I had this like journey of um, you know, when do I say we need to do another take? You know, when I'm recording somebody. Like, I feel like that could have been better, but I wasn't sure if they want to hear me say that or are they emotionally ready to receive that? Um, and so it yeah, just kind of started from uh from just having that thought. And then um I met um a client, uh his name is uh Steven Dennison, and he uh releases music under the name Sob Dog. And um, I know, super cute. Um and he reached out, just you know, he's a songwriter and he wanted to record in a studio and needed you know somebody to help make it happen. And I was like, well, I like your music, and I I feel like we're a good fit energy-wise and schedule-wise, which are two big things to make sure we're good. And um, yeah, then we just started kind of working together and piecing this album together, and that was really my first like project that I produced um was this album with him, and um, you know, just working with him was really great. Um, he, you know, got me listening to chords in a you know a different way than I had before, um, you know, getting out of the classical more into some jazz voicings and stuff. And um, you know, his songwriting was uh I I like that I like stuff that maybe doesn't necessarily like go together, you know, like um a happy sounding song with sad lyrics or I've always been attended to that.

Joey Stuckey 32:41

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I love that. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

I love and this was just such an opportunity to play with that. And he was a great um, you know, kind of, I'll just say anything strings player. Like he's mainly a bassist, but would pop out the acoustic and we had a banjo and a slide guitar and we all this stuff. And I played drums, even though I'm I'm not a drummer, but I played them individually pretty okay. So we could do like, here's the kick, and then now here's the stick. We, you know, we made this whole whole album happen. And um yeah, it was really great. And I I realized, um, you know, speaking to your point about, you know, joy and what brings you joy, and you can absolutely act on that at any time. And so I I realized, like, hey, I really love doing this. I love having like a creative input in the music that I'm working on. And um, so then after that, anytime I was recording with somebody, I would just kind of check in and be like, hey, are you looking for someone to just like push the record button? No feedback, stay out of it. Happy to do that. But in case you want a little, you know, creative direction or a second set of ears for performance, I'm happy to like step into that role. So it kind of started just doing that, like, hey, singer, let's go back to the bridge because that note was pitchy and because of my background with singing. Um, you know, uh vocals were really easy for me to start to produce because it was all stuff I had been thinking about for years. Like, what is the diction? What is that vowel shape? Do I like that? Oh, there's a breath kind of in the middle of the phrase in a weird spot. Let's redo that and move that breath over here. It works better.

Joey Stuckey 34:21

Um please stop singing the word amazing grace with a pause is all I'm gonna say.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Oh may.

Joey Stuckey 34:31

Don't do it. Don't do it. Anyway, I didn't mean to interrupt you. That just drive that just drives me crazy. Amay.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

I'm right there with Zing Grace.

Joey Stuckey 34:38

Yeah. Um May. But Zing. Yeah, yeah. Please, please. You know what? Just take my money. Oh, beat me and leave me the corner.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

You know, one of my uh I think it was in high school that I had a band instructor who like the read to us this passage. It was like a a customer complaint about something really silly. But he read it to us twice. And the first time he took breaths in any random spot. And the whole thing was really hard to decipher. Like, what is he saying? Like, I don't know how this goes together. And then he read it again, where you would take breaths in appropriate places in between sentences, not in the middle of a word. And and I love it. It was such a great, and that like that has stuck with me. It's been 20 years that stuck with me. Like that's fantastic. So yeah, and so I'm uh I that should be an exercise that everybody has to get.

Joey Stuckey 35:31

Well, it's well, I listen, I had a I I had someone, um, I don't know, you probably had this experience too, where um they you know they they were they were a singer but didn't play. Uh okay, no problem. Uh sing your song to this to your iPhone, send me the file, yeah, I'll build I'll build a track.

SPEAKER_03 35:47

Yep.

Joey Stuckey 35:48

Uh so we we build the track, we get them in there. Okay, it's time to sing your song. Have you been practicing? Yeah, okay. Uh, and then they're like, where do I come in? Like, uh, you've had this file for weeks, and I put a guide vocal on it.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Yeah, like you should know it inside and out by now.

Joey Stuckey 36:04

And so I had to stand in the vocal booth and raise my hand like a beat before you're before they were to come in. Uh I was like, I was like, wow. And I had to do it for like two and three hours. I'm standing there.

SPEAKER_02 36:17

Oh man.

Joey Stuckey 36:18

I'm like, well, I mean, yeah, I'm I at least I'm getting paid, but geez. Yeah. But but but anyway, it is but my whole point, I was being kind of silly. I mean, it it people do need to kind of learn, you know, where to breathe. And it's a big deal. It's a big deal. I mean, it's real important. So you you got all I didn't mean to like sort of interrupt on that that thought, but but I just uh you know, you're producing vocals now, now you're you're getting more of the creative process. So, you know, that to me is where I mean, that's where I like to hang because um I mean if if you want me just to keep my mouth shut and push the buttons, I will. But um, but but I I I think you're missing um you know the value there because uh granted it's just an opinion, but it's a highly educated one. Right. That has been through a lot. Um refined and shaped over time. And um, you know, I will be the first to admit when I say, but when I'm hired as a producer, like here's the deal. I'm gonna always tell you what I think. You feel free to ignore that if you want, because at the end of the day, you know, it's your record. It's it's it's not my record, it's your record. So I'm not going to fight with you, I'm not gonna argue with you, I will defend my position if you you know if you want to understand why uh I said what I said, I will I will be glad to have that conversation. But at the end of the day, it's again, Joey Stuckey's a drama-free zone. So we we're happy here. Like, you know, what and and if if you doing something I think is silly makes you happy, uh, then that's what we'll do, you know. But with the caveat that when you come to me the next day and hate it, want to do it again, ain't my problem. I was like, remember I said, but but my I'm just kind of curious how you handle this because I I think client like managing expectations is kind of a big thing that a lot of people in our business do not understand.

SPEAKER_03 38:06

Yeah, absolutely.

Joey Stuckey 38:08

And so I tell people, like, look, here's the deal. I'm a professional, I'm gonna build you a mix. I'm gonna build you a mix like I build you a house. It's gonna be a great house, but you gotta make it your house. And just because I make you a good mix does not mean you'll like it. So, what you have to do is come and decorate this house and put your touch on it so that it's your house and not mine. So I am here to facilitate and execute things and help, you know, help do these things. But if you're not present while I'm mixing, and this is something a lot of people don't do, I I'm just curious how you feel about this. So that's why I'm doing this long ramp up. But if you're not present while I'm mixing, I don't want to hear about it. Like you do not get a vote. If you should have been there during the mix process to say I want more bass guitar, because if I have to come back and fix it, that's on you. So if you don't know, you're gonna put it over and think it sounds good. Yeah, yeah. So if you don't come to the mix session, if it's not, if your record is not important enough that you come to the mix session, or that you don't have some kind of way of giving me your input, whether it's email or we we mix on Zoom or whatever, whatever it is, like I'm like, you know, then that I don't I'm not going to uh worry about you not uh getting what you want as much because I gave you a chance to tell me exactly what you wanted. How do you handle that, Audrey? What are you what is your philosophy of helping the client to to help themselves?

SPEAKER_01 39:36

Yeah, I love that. Um, I I like to try to meet people where they're at. So some people are, you know, you've experienced it too. They're very new to the whole process. And oh sure. You know, some people can get kind of like overwhelmed and like, oh I don't know. And so yeah, those people, I'm like, please let's sit together and let's go through it. But I will ahead of time do some of the kind of like EQ cleanup um or tuning. Um just just because like I remember being a a little baby singer, and you know, it's it's uh it's sometimes not the the best for the ego to hear your voice through through such a microscope. And so if if just if I get the vibes that people are a little like anxious or you know, not really sure, then I'll I'll try to like make the mix session when they're there, kind of like the more fun stuff, like the more bells and whistles and that kind of thing, you know.

Joey Stuckey 40:40

I like that idea. I think that's cool. You know, it is it is true. I mean, I so I'm one of the few singers I know, so I'm wondering if you feel this way too. It's kind of interesting. That I refuse to track with reverb in my phones. Um all the singers I know want verb in their phones, and and even really good singers. And and the reason they want it is because it it takes a little of the uh uh preciseness away as far as the pitch. I mean, you it it it's obscuring you know pitch value, it's it's giving you uh a little bit of uh a little bit of a buffer. Um, I don't want that. I want to hear every nasty thing that I do so I can fix it. So I don't like because that that to me is like more valuable. So you know, my default position is like I'll give you reverb if you want it, but I would prefer not to have it so I know what I've got. Like, you know, that that to me is more value. But then the the balance of that is you have to make people feel comfortable or they're not gonna perform well. So yeah, you have to you have to find the the sweet spot, and it's it's tricky. And and as singers, I mean, would you agree? I feel like I I can say this. We are neurotic people. I mean, just you know, I mean, I'll very detailed, I will say. I mean, I here's the thing, man. Like, I get so freaked out if my voice isn't working right. I just do. Uh, I know I'm not being rational. I really I'm I'm aware of it, but like if if I'm having a hard time with allergies or something, yeah, I'm like, oh, I'm ever sick again. Like, I have to like fight that part away and go stop that, suck it up, you're professional, you can get this done. And and I can, that's the thing. I like I know that I can, but but it's weird because if your voice doesn't feel right or doesn't sound right to you, man, that is just a hard thing to it's you're so exposed emotionally, yeah, you know, because there's no instrument between you and and what's going on. Um I mean, well, how do you how do you handle that? Because I think you've got a wonderful intuitive nature of helping people through um the process. So what is what is your how do you find that sweet spot of comfort versus the technique that we want?

SPEAKER_01 42:45

Yeah, I I will say like, gosh, probably most of the time, and I mean like 90% of the time, I'm recording vocals dry and no one's hearing re I might have a little bit in the control room that I kind of A B just to see like, okay, is this gonna fit with the vibe of the song? Okay, you know, that's smart, that's that kind of stuff. But most of the time nobody else is listening to it. Um if if and the here's where the asterisk is if if there's like a song where I don't know, just the mood or whatever is really dependent on some of those effects, and hearing that will help the singer kind of deliver the emotional um aspect that they need to, then I'll I'll do that. And I'll usually have it um I have um like these Furman headphone boxes so um people can mix their own um ears basically. Um yeah, so I'll I'll put the the dry on one knob and the and the uh effects on another so that they can kind of like play with whatever blend they want. Um, but I can still mute it and play with it in the control room uh and affect their headphones if I feel like, oh, you know what, let's try it dry and nobody can hear anything. I'll I'll overfind everything that they're doing. Um but so you know sometimes if it helps them get into the emotional space for sure, but I I'll say I pretty much default to no reverb.

Joey Stuckey 44:09

That's awesome. Well, so so what what kind of console do you use at your studio? What is what is or do you do mostly in the box? What's the what's the what's the what's the jam?

SPEAKER_01 44:17

Yeah, yeah. So I have um a bunch of like uh rack pre's that I use. Um and then so everything will go through um my pre's into um Pro Tools, and then I mix on a uh C24 uh control surface. So um gosh, yeah, we just got a Heritage Super 8 uh pre uh set of eight pre's that I'm very excited about. Um using those a ton lately. Um but then otherwise, everything else. Um I I have uh six tube pre's of varying flavors. There's some HHB, some UA, um an 1176. Um and so I'll you know, I'll I'll use those, but most of Of the um pre's that I I favor for like classical and things like that are very like transparent. So I've got like the uh millennia um oh I'm gonna forget the num the letters HD V8 or something like that. I think close enough. Something like that. I know. Like I've I've don't know how I'm gonna.

Joey Stuckey 45:17

I'm blind, I'm not gonna look it up.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Yes, don't yeah. If you're at home, feel free to look it up and let us know what it is. Let us know what I have in my own studio.

Joey Stuckey 45:28

Yeah. Well, well you it it it is true. I mean, yeah, I I I classical is a different realm. And um I now I as I say I like classical, um, but um I am more uh you know inspired with jazz and stuff like that. And and the reason for that is pretty easy to understand. If you are an educated, trained musician, but also can't actually read sheet music because you can't see, uh, then leaning into improvisational things is probably your smart choice. So so for me, I've always found like creating on the fly is much better than having to replicate somebody else's vision. Um it's just easier for me. You know, it it's it's it's it's the right return on effort versus time. Um can't can I do the other way around? I can. Uh it just takes a lot of time. So I mean, if John Williams called me up and said, hey, we want you to play classical guitar on this symphony piece, uh, then then that's worth my I'll do that. I'll do it for free. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

Just in case John's listening.

Joey Stuckey 46:32

Yeah, just in case, Jalen. Uh, but but uh, but I mean, like, you know, like so, but it it does come down to like, you know, what kind of like effort do I have to put in to make you know work. So um my favorite jazz engineer, uh, since you do so much of this, I'm just curious, uh, is Rudy Van Gelder. That's that's kind of the uh my gold standard. Like who do you listen to for jazz? Like when you're I was gonna say that's that's that's that's the that is the that's the stuff. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:01

Oh go ahead.

Joey Stuckey 47:02

Oh no, you you first pick it up.

SPEAKER_01 47:04

I was gonna say a lot a lot of um, you know, I I've been turned on to a lot of the old like kind of blue note um records from uh the uh professor of jazz studies at UW, his name's Johannes Walman. And um he's every time he's in the studio, he's I he's asking for like, give me that blue note kind of sound and stuff. So I was like, all right, cool, yeah, I'm here for that. I like it. And he has a compression allergy also. So um volume automation is like definitely like I love getting nitty-gritty with that kind of stuff. It's great.

Joey Stuckey 47:35

So you're you're you're right in faders and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep, definitely.

Joey Stuckey 47:40

Well, I I like that too. Um, and um, I mean I I I like compression too, but it just depends on what you're doing. But I I will say, uh well, I will say, you know, the interesting thing for me about about jazz, I think the thing that I uh that that makes it so interesting, um, and you may have a different feeling about this, so please feel free to wax philosophical. Um for me, like, you know, part of what makes jazz jazz is first of all, uh there's a freedom to create uh that is based on intellect, but but fueled by emotion, right? I mean, there's you know, you've got you've got uh all these compound intervals, you've you've got uh Hemiolas, and it's you know, this time to the church, superimposed on this time, so that's all these all these complicated things that you can do and ways you can express yourself. But you also can feel pleaded, well, if I want to play a note that's outside the key, I'm not gonna bother to justify that. I'm just gonna do it because I like it. Uh, I mean, you know, and and I think Coltrane and would would approve. I think, you know, I I think there are people that uh definitely feel that way. Um, but what what I what I do like is the way that the space is also part of the composition uh a lot of times. And that I think is unique to jazz. And I like the idea that uh, you know, what one thing we can experiment with is capturing like harmonics and partials and and not just fundamental frequencies anymore. Like, you know, like okay, well, what happens if I if I move the microphone away from the horn and I'm getting more room tones and and you know they're affecting pitch and they're so there's always interesting sonic things. I mean, is that is that a big part of what you like to explore with jazz? I mean, what's what's your take on on that sort of exploration?

SPEAKER_01 49:29

Absolutely. I yeah, one of the things that I love about jazz sessions is that it could be like and I just had what uh this kind of case, uh, you know, maybe what I'm looking at the date two weeks ago. I had a like kind of a big band. Uh we were recording a score for a a film. And cool. Um yeah, yeah. I'm I'm excited. It's uh the I the film is starring Vince Vaughn and it's called The Bookie in the Bruiser, and it's coming out eventually. I don't actually have the dates on that. I could have looked that up maybe before doing that. But um, but it's it's like yeah, big band jazz stuff. And like uh the composer's guy named Jeff Harriet, and um, you know, he lives just a few miles away from the studio, and so we've we've done a few projects together now. But um, yeah, he sent these compositions to some people, and they got in a room, had never most of them had never played together, like you know, a lot of them were just kind of meeting you know in the room, and but they had this guide of, you know, here's what the music's gonna be like, and kind of knew like, all right, this section is gonna maybe go for uh solos and we'll go drums, bass, piano, or you know, so we there was like an outline, but yeah, getting everybody's energy in the room, having them just chat for a bit, play it three times, and it's like which was the best feel, you know. I I just love that. And it it's so much of a conversation, you know, like someone will do something and then this other person will respond, and then person three chimes in from over there, and then it, you know, I I love that kind of uh you know movement in music, I think is really cool. And um, you know, to what you were saying about the, you know, play a play a note that doesn't fit in the song or whatever, who cares? Just play the note if you like it, you know. Um, one of the things I've I've heard people uh in these sessions say is like, you know, it doesn't matter if you get yourself into the weeds, it's how you get yourself out, you know. So you could play a wrong note. But then if you play it again and then a third time and now you've added like a little motif. Exactly. Yeah, now it's on purpose. I did it three times in a row. So I I just love, yeah, like there's that kind of like freedom in it. And I think that that can be scary for some people too. Like, um, you know, I had a session uh where it was uh a double quintet. So it was one half was a jazz quintet, and then the other half was a classical quintet.

Joey Stuckey 51:55

Well, we were talking about Charles Ives earlier, so there you go.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

Right, there we go, right? It's it's like parks and wreck jazz plus jazz. Yeah, oh my god.

Joey Stuckey 52:02

Yeah, yeah. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

But it was there was this great moment where um the composer of the piece was the jazz musician. He was playing bass in the session. And there was this section in the music where the classical people were like, What are we supposed to do here? And he was like, Well, you're supposed to improvise. And the looks they get, they were like, What do you mean? He's like, Yeah, we're in B flat. You just play something, whatever you feel. And they all looked at each other like it was just such the like perfect um, you know, dichotomy between these two schools of thought. Like, right in front of me was jazz, like, just play something and classical is like, uh, you didn't write anything for me to play. I don't know.

Joey Stuckey 52:44

No, it's true. I mean, it is, yeah. Some of the best players in the world uh are just lost if it's not on the page. Um, and you know, I I I mean, there are there are times when in the studio we've literally had to sit down and like write, like, okay, here's a here's an improv thing. Well, I don't know what hold on, hang on, we'll write something for you.

SPEAKER_02 53:03

Yeah, yep, yep.

Joey Stuckey 53:04

Here's here's here's here's a chart, you know. But I mean, but you know, there's no no shade. That's that's totally fine.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

Yeah, just different ways of thinking and processing. Like I've I've definitely been, you know, on a talk back mic, and someone's been like, Oh, what should I play? And I'll be like, Okay, do this. And they'll be like, Okay, wait, let me write that down. What was that second note you said? Yeah, I'm like, I don't know.

Joey Stuckey 53:26

Are we living the same life?

SPEAKER_01 53:29

I know. When are we doing an album?

Joey Stuckey 53:31

I might, I might, I might be you. Maybe I just don't know it.

unknown 53:34

Right.

Joey Stuckey 53:35

But well, well, uh now I wanna I want to warn you about something. Uh, you just said something you shouldn't have. Oh, I knew it. You just said, what are we doing album? Now, I do not take things like that lightly. So you've said it, and now one day I won't be contacting you, and I'll say, remember when you said, and that's time now. That's like because this is what I do. Because I just I just recorded, I was I was the first artist to record at the uh Les Fall studio in LA. And uh I did it because he made a mistake. Maybe made a mistake. I was like, oh, should we let record here? Oh, maybe we can arrange that sometime. Oh boy.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

We're arranging, I'm the same way. Yep, yeah. I've I've yep. So I might have to do it.

Joey Stuckey 54:21

I've got you now. No, I'm I I'm I'm I'm ready. Yeah, I mean it is well, you know.

SPEAKER_01 54:26

It's on zeros and ones.

Joey Stuckey 54:27

I'm glad you I'm glad you still say tape. Thank you for that. Yeah, I I do too, and it's I mean it's stupid, but I just can't get out of the habit. Um, let me so let me let me as we're starting running uh to to the edge of our time together, I want to ask a couple quick things. But the the first one is how much do you get to play music yourself now that you're in this other production role and engineering role and business owner role? Wait, and of course you're an educator as well, but I mean, how much music do you get to explore for you?

SPEAKER_01 54:56

You know, I I actually wished it was more. Um, I I gave myself a goal this year of just to play an instrument every day. Um, it doesn't matter what instrument. I can it just has to I have to like make music somehow outside of work. Which is kind of funny, you know. Um so I I do I do a little uh a little bit. I don't really write too often. I haven't really like ever thought of myself as you know much of a a writer. I like to, you know, help people who have an idea realize it further. And I I will write parts, I'll write harmonies, I'll help change lyrics and stuff like that. But I I'm much more like comfortable in that aspect. So um, but yeah, I I do I do get to uh play um, you know, yeah, I I play probably about like a half hour or 15 minutes every day, just something.

Joey Stuckey 55:50

And like what what is your primary instrument? I mean what I mean voice I think is probably the first, but what what what else do you do? You play piano or what's your what else if you play?

SPEAKER_01 55:59

I like to and uh apologies if you need to bleep this out later. I tell people all the time that I half ass a lot of instruments, but I whole ass none of them. So I I my aside from voice, um ukulele is um probably my most comfortable instrument. I play a little guitar, um, you know, even less bass, um little piano, you know. I can I can give you some some chords and stuff and pretty much like be right there with you. But if we're doing something, you know, much more complicated than that, I should we should get somebody else to do it. Um uh yeah, uh you know, just a little bit of drums. I I've started to kind of pick that up just out of necessity too. Like um, there's been times where I'm working on something with somebody and um you know I just hear a part in my head and I'll whatever instrument that part is on, I will pick up that instrument and try to make myself play that part sometimes. And nice. Um yeah, yeah.

Joey Stuckey 56:59

So do you write sharp do you write charts bigly? Or do you do you st are you are you mostly tied to the page? What's your what's your it sounds like you're a good improviser as well.

SPEAKER_01 57:07

So what's your that's what I've I've been working on that more. So um yeah, if you give me like a a chart with like, hey, here here are the chords, you know, whatever, I'll I'll yeah, I got you. Um I yeah, I can read cheap music just fine too. Um but I'm yeah, I'm trying to practice more of the improvising because because I'm so like you know impressed by all the the jazz people, I'm like, I want to be able to do that. So um that's kind of just recently I I've I've started when I pick up a guitar, I'll not play any chords and just try to like you know find some melodies and practice some scales and that kind of stuff.

Joey Stuckey 57:44

So I I have to say, well, I have to say, I had a moment. I I what I've learned over the years is that um I don't believe in the idea of a perfect mix. I think that's uh a lie. I I think I think that the I I'm worried that students are getting locked into this idea of perfection that's absolutely unobtainable because I can take any song you've ever made and find something wrong with it. And uh I could literally spend the rest of my life on one song and never have it done. So the the the real question that we're trying to educate on is when are we done? And uh for me, that's whenever the artistic uh mission, whatever that is for the piece, is clearly communicated. At that point, stop. It doesn't matter if there's a technical thing left, the undone or whatever. You know, and and you know, I I will get a mix for a client in two or three hours, that's great. And then they'll spend three or four hours changing it, and we don't have anything better. We have something different. We don't but we don't we don't have anything better. We were done four hours ago. But but my point is like so so I'm saying all that to say that um you know the the the the communication uh you know really what we are is communicators and we use music as that vehicle. Um and so um you know I I I worry about this sort of anxiety that uh that that uh comes with sort of this false notion of perfection. So I've I've learned over the years to deal with the fact that I'm never really a hundred percent happy with anything I do. I've just learned to deal with it. So it's like I've learned like, okay, I'm a perfectionist at heart that doesn't believe in perfection. Yeah. Now that's I identify as a that sounds that sounds crazy, but but but it's not so anyway. Interestingly, we I was just in LA doing uh the whiskey of go-go and playing a show, and I played a solo that transversed very quickly three different keys, uh uh in I don't know, in about three seconds or four seconds, and uh and all of it made sense and didn't sound weird. And I was like, Oh, I've actually played something I like today. What a novel concept! So I encourage you to keep practicing your scales. At some point, something weird will happen, and you'll be like, oh, I can just play whatever I want now.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:05

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Joey Stuckey 1:00:07

Yeah, and I and I the the the great freedom when you're for me, I I find like the best thing I can do is turn my brain off and like not know what's gonna happen next and truly just let it be like, you know, okay, whatever, whatever comes out, comes out. And you know, uh the the technical mastery is is is important in so much as we learn how to move those limitations out of our way so that all that we're really gonna have to buy is imagination. That's the goal. And I think some people you know stop at the technical mastery and don't ever take it to that next step, which which again worries me for the generation coming up. Um and two two last things. In um in the music business today, um, what what do you think the important takeaways are for people that are starting in the 21st century in the in the music business? Like what what do you think it is that will allow them to actually have a career? And and and when we say career, that can mean a lot of different things. So it could be Adele selling out at 80,000 seat arena, it could be Joey Stuckey talking to 60 kids at SCAD, right? So it's like, you know, those you know there's different definitions of success, but I think fulfillment maybe would be a better word. But what do you think it is that allows people to have a a career in the music business today where um artists and uh poor are not synonymous?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:36

I and I mean I think you really just touched on it, honestly, is that just being open to all sorts of different, right? Like if if you're gonna set out to, you know, I am only going to be a voiceover artist and I will only do documentary style work, you know, that just is really limiting. And, you know, there might come a point, you know, where you've done thousands of documentaries of all sorts or or all different gigs or whatever, and then you can start to narrow it down and exclusively do like I want to just do this very niche thing. But I I think that, you know, even if it's not something that is your main passion, right? Like I have recorded solo violin so many times. Like I can't even talk how many times. And you know, I I still do it and I still uh enjoy it and I still find things that I learn. And because of that, like my you know, my pitch is like crazy good. And so, you know, recording all of those hours of solo violin or you know, Eastern Indian uh singing too, because they use a quarter tone. So that is, you know, the more you can do of that stuff is really cool. So it might not be like, I want to work on, you know, Justin Bieber stuff only, but it it is gonna inform all of your work too. You know, uh those skills are gonna translate between different things. And you never know where you're gonna pick up a skill and then where it's gonna come in handy later on. So, you know, I I think especially at the beginning of her career, you don't really know what you want to do yet. You know, you maybe have an idea of like, oh, I really enjoy making rock music. Awesome. But have you ever tried doing foley? Or have you ever like no, right? Um, so yeah, I that's that's my advice to like students too, is I'm like, just create, create, create, create, create. You know, if you're trying to be a producer, give yourself the exercise, make um, you know, uh make a song a day. Each week have it be a different genre, you know, because you're you're putting yourself through this exercise of like, okay, making, making, making, making. I'm gonna get better at MIDI along the way. I might develop presets for plugins along the way that I, you know, will refer back to in future projects. Like you're also creating a library for potential collaborations with artists. Uh, you're creating a library for stuff that you can use for sync placement. You're creating, you know, all of all of these different avenues. And to shut yourself off from any of them, I think, um, is a mistake.

Joey Stuckey 1:04:21

Yeah, I I totally agree with that. You know, it's been a um when I went to school the first time, um, I went uh uh I didn't well, my story is really strange. I graduated high school when I was like 14 and it is a whole thing. Uh so it was I was a 16-year-old in college and I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Um, but when I went to school the first time, I kind of ended up in the communication department um eventually. And uh and and uh and that's great. But um, you know, I I I realized that um, you know, I was doing I was doing music anyway. I just thought I should have some kind of degree. Uh and uh so I was yeah, but I I'd already made the decision. Uh by the time I was 19, I was getting paid to do it, you know. Um and and and that's just kind of what you know what it was. And I was like, oh, this is this is where I'm supposed to be. But I I I'm so curious about everything. I want to know everything and I want to explore everything. And I think that's a really important thing. But like you do at some point kind of realize, you know, after I mean, you know, in in time, you know, where you have an unusual gift for something, um, that that you're the best in your market or whatever, you know. And so I I totally get like, you know, leaning into that, but you know, when I was studying uh marketing and public relations and all these things, um, it took me years to free myself from the worry of being eclectic. And um I always I always thought of it as a young musician as uh, well, I just like everything. If I want to put a raga in this tin, I'm gonna. If I wanna, you know, I've got a song that uh my first record when I was like 21 or whatever it was. Uh, you know, it's like it it's it's it's slinky, you know, uh red dress up the slid up the side, jazz, uh, and then it turns into then it then it turns about two-thirds of the way through in the death metal. Nice. It does. And and I will tell you, I thought that would never get played on radio, and one day it did. Uh but anyway, that was a big one. Yeah, but and I was like, oh my god, this guy's crazier than I am playing this song. Um admittedly, it was like two in the morning, but still. Um but like like I've I've decided now at my ripe old age here that it uh if it doesn't interest me, I'm not gonna do it. Like I'm just gonna lean into it. Like, you know, uh someone said to me that they go, Why why did you choose that chord? Because it interested me. Like I I found it compelling. I thought it was interesting. I don't really care if anybody else likes it. I you know, I'm just doing it because it interests us. So I think I said all that to say that I really believe. Being your authentic self is the most powerful thing you can do for your career, even if everybody else around you thinks it's nuts, because authenticity is the core of any brand. Yeah. If your authenticity is Taylor Swift, that is fine. If your authenticity, you mentioned one of my favorite groups, the Dresda Dolls, is that kind of stuff, that's fine. If your authenticity is like tuneards, you know, that's fine. Like whatever, whatever it is, you know, just that do that thing and and and don't worry so much because uh there are things in life we do need to worry about, but being your authentic self is is never anything in my mind but a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:41

Yeah.

Joey Stuckey 1:07:41

Um and I I just I really want to put that out there because I've worried about it so long. Like, well, here's the marketing funnel, and here's the this and here's that. And like, oh god, I don't fit any of these boxes. Like, I mean so you know, so uh I just you know I just wanted to kind of share that uh that thought because um the so my other question to you is like, do you think um I I will say here's something we can't worry about. I will say that I do feel like generally speaking, not in pockets like where you are, which sounds amazing, and I'm definitely gonna come visit whether you want me or not. Uh if you if you've got a bathtub with some jello, I'm there. Uh and I'll let you wonder about how those things go together. Well, that's that's for later. But but but in all seriousness, I mean like you know, you've got a music community that uh, as you say, you know, the the you know, the live scene for the punk guys, maybe not so great if you're not playing covers, but the live scene for jazz and classical. Uh so okay, great, there's a market. So um, but anyway, like I I do wonder, you know, I feel like with and I'm I'm picking on Spotify, everybody does. It might slightly be unfair, but I'm gonna do it anyway, because they do have some things that really tick me off. But I I I'm not sure they have a moral compass. Uh anyway, but so but but I mean, like, you know, like I do feel like one of the things that concerns me in the music business of the 21st century is there's some people, Suno, I'm talking to you, uh, that feel like uh the only laudable goal is to have no education, no effort, and for everything to be instant gratification and and and Swiss cheese. I like you know, it's like okay, uh how you know, processed stuff that has no soul. Um so I I worry about that because I think that is really um I I really believe that arts are important, and I think that they uh can signal to you where your society is.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:42

Yeah.

Joey Stuckey 1:09:43

Um as like like a health barometer, like a blood pressure cuff for society. It's like, you know, if you've got a thriving arts community, uh, you know, you're probably doing all right because because people that are are thinking, they are they are they are loving, they are learning, they are exploring, you know, you're probably okay. When that starts to stagnate, uh it scares me. And um, you know, so uh I I think that's like you know uh the kind of problems that you might see in 1939 Germany. So all I'm saying is like, you know, uh I I wonder like what I want to see, and I'm just wondering what you're you know, we're in different parts of the country, so I'm wondering what you're seeing. What I want to see is a return to music being an event. Um where when I was a kid, and you're younger than me, um, but uh but I'm still very handsome, just just so everybody knows. Uh so uh but but the the truth is like when I was a kid in the 80s, um we made an event out of listening to music, and we would save up our allowances for the week, and we'd go to the record store and we'd buy like some new record or whatever, maybe even say to the person that worked there, hey, what's good? Like what do you think I would enjoy? Is there something new we can experience? And then we'd get together, usually at my house, because we had the I had the best system, and uh, you know, I'm talking at least for like 11-year-olds and 12-year-olds, you know. And and we would sit down and listen to each other's records, and sometimes we'd play them again, and we'd talk about what we'd heard. And none of those people, by the way, that I hung out with in my childhood that that did that experience with me, none of them became musicians. Oh, interesting. Uh so they were they loved music and made it part of their lives without it being their vocation. So I'm just gonna I would love to see a return to music being an important part of life that we take time out of our day for as a spiritual thing, as a mental health thing, you know, all these things. And so I'm wondering because you're you're teaching, you're recording, you're you're performing, you're doing a live sound, which I absolutely hate doing live sound, so good on you. Glad somebody else wants to do it because I do not. Uh and certain people. I'm just saying, man, it's so hard to fix stupid. And I just like I get the live sound person gets blamed for everything that's wrong with the venue. And it's like, hey, I did not even the lights. Oh, dude. And I'm like, hey, I can't help but you have crappy grounded power here, man. That is not my fault.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:04

Yeah, yeah.

Joey Stuckey 1:12:06

But like, what are you seeing that? Are you seeing what what are you seeing in your area? And and we should say that you know, you're you're a governor with the Grammys, as am I. You're with the Chicago chapter. So you and I see a lot of music from all over the world when we travel and do these different things. But and what what is your what is your read on on where we are in the music business vis-a-vis, like, you know, making art important.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:30

Yeah, and I I you know, I think this kind of goes back to we were talking about vinyl coming back to um I think with all of the the you know AI stuff and uh the more content that's created that way, I'm seeing a lot of the the you know, younger, you know, college age and even you know, I have a mid I'm a parent to a middle schooler and um uh I have spent three weeks over the summer teaching um middle schoolers and high schoolers uh production and in various kind of ways. And what what I'm seeing from them is like they are really getting to be very quick at recognizing when something is AI and when something is human uh better than adults. Definitely better than like people our age and older for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:18

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:18

Um just because, you know, they're growing up with it, you know, and so they can just identify these nuances that the rest of us haven't maybe picked up on yet. And uh part of me is wondering if if that is gonna drive um you know increases in physical media for for music and and of like the community around it, right? Getting together and listening to a record or you know, uh I'm just uh seeing, you know, um people buying like Polaroid cameras and stuff now and and uh having those uh pictures around. And so I think all of the new technology is kind of creating this nostalgia for old technology with a generation that never really got to experience it. Like, you know, my kid has had YouTube basically his whole life, you know. And so when you grow up with that, I think you're like, well, this isn't how things always were. Like, what was it like? And let me just experience that a little bit. So I I'm hoping that that kind of becomes more of a of a thing. Um, you know, I've I've been seeing it, but hopefully other people do too. Um and yeah, so I I'm curious to see if that leads to, you know, more of how we uh you know uh consumed music in the 80s and 90s and stuff. So we'll see. Yeah.

Joey Stuckey 1:14:39

Yeah. I think you know, I I I will tell you, um I I I did experience all that stuff, and and you know, I do not miss cassettes, okay? I I had a million. Uh and there's some people in our industry make bringing those back. And I'm like, why would you want to do that to yourself? You clearly have never tried to wind tape back that's kind of bottom.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:59

I mean, it's like it got real popular for a second there a couple of years ago, and now it's kind of gone back away.

Joey Stuckey 1:15:05

Like, what is why would you do that to yourself? Uh, but anyway, um, you know, I don't I don't miss that. And I was actually having a comment with, I don't know if you know who JJ Blair is, but um, but I was having a conversation with him, and and you know, uh we were he was saying, like, I you know, people are like, oh, tape is uh sonically better than um you know digital. And that you know, that's the quickest way to go brawl. I mean, you know, in a in an audio conference or something. In these parts, yeah. So people say, What's your favorite microphone? Oh, God, don't ask that. Um I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:34

That's the number one question. That doesn't know any famous people.

Joey Stuckey 1:15:38

Oh I do, but I'm not gonna tell you. But I mean, but like so, you know, I I will say, like, I don't miss tape. And scientifically speaking, it is not a superior format when we start talking about uh signal-to-noise ratio and noise floors, this kind of thing. Um now, if you want to say that's what you like, I got no problem with that. Like if you say I like the sound of tape, I I I don't disagree with you. But but if you want to try and say that somehow it is scientifically, sonically a better uh recording medium, it just isn't.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:14

So you know, then how do you quantify that? Same thing with perfections. Like yeah, that's why you can't just I'm telling myself this as a perfectionist, like we were talking, but like how can you chase an idea that's like so objective? Well, that's subjective.

Joey Stuckey 1:16:31

Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:32

You were there.

Joey Stuckey 1:16:33

Yeah, I'm I'm with you. Well, anyway, so I mean the thing is what I was gonna say is I I I hope that you're right. I mean, I am not suggesting uh to be clear, I mean, I'm not suggesting people become Luddites or like, you know, are afraid of technology. I'm not saying that. But what I am saying is that, you know, at some point you have to decide what being human means. Like it's important to understand that. It sounds obvious, but you have to understand what it means. And the best way to explore that in my mind is the arts. Now, you know, for me, the arts being music. I, you know, I don't I don't receive visual stimuli. So I can't really, you know, I I think painting and everything is great, but I can't really, I can't process that. That's just not this is not something I can do. Um, so so for me it's it's it's audio, but I just you know I would like to see um I I think the other thing is people are are are what they've realized, or what I hope people are realizing, is we live in a time where you don't own anything, everything is rented. So the music on my phone that I pay for isn't really mine. Yes. If Apple decides to take it down, it's gone.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:41

Yeah.

Joey Stuckey 1:17:42

Um and then where did it go? Well, how do I access it? I can't.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:46

Um, you know, so that's what the younger people are starting. I think they're hipper to that than we are.

Joey Stuckey 1:17:52

Yeah, no, I I think I think you're right. So I think I think people are are coming back to this idea, well, I want to I want to own something that I can control and that I can consume on my timetable. I mean, uh, I don't know if you're a Star Trek fan or not. Uh you if you're not, I will not hold it against you. But uh little bit. Okay, well, as long as you don't like hate it, we're good.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:11

No, yeah, I mean not.

Joey Stuckey 1:18:14

Um but uh but but but in like so you know there was a big thing, I I believe it was on Netflix, it might have been Hulu, I can't remember. But there was a big uproar with the Star Trek uh universe because all of a sudden a lot of those shows were gone from their favorite streaming platform. And what are they what's what's the remedy? There isn't one because I stopped producing physical comics. This is you know, this is why Joey, partly I'm a collector, I have a I have a disease, and you know, like I like to collect stuff. Uh and then like, you know, like uh but but then um you know, once if you get used to everything being you know in your pocket uh uh and and accessible theoretically at any time, and then suddenly it's not, um that's a real that's a real problem. And you know, the other the other thing I would say is that you know people make the argument, well, every time your song is played, you get paid. Uh whereas if you sell a CD, you get paid one time. Yes, but I'm being paid two tenths of a penny.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:07

The scale is not you can you can keep it.

Joey Stuckey 1:19:11

I mean, you know, yeah, like also, also, you know, the other thing is like, you know, and that uh there are even rules about that, like, okay, you have to stream it for a certain time before we call it a stream. So if you click on it for two seconds, we don't have to pay. All these you know caveats. Um so but but I I did I did want to tell you, like, AI is like my big trigger thing, like that's the thing that I worry about. Um because um uh you know, as a blind person, I like AI in its lane. So, for example, yeah using my meta glasses to describe something around me as a blind person that has value, that enhances my humanity. Uh, if I can sit on a couch with no musical uh intellect of any kind, uh with no intention, which is the real crime, uh, and I can make a song, um I I have to say, where's the value in that? Like what why do I want to consume that? What does that mean to me as a human being? You know, the machine, and this is the thing that I just can't say enough. The machine's not alive. It has nothing to tell me. Yeah, and yeah. Well, it has, I mean, like I have uh stories of survival that I can tell you to my music. I have uh and then you can take that and you can use it in your own way and use it as armor for your survival. You can you can put the lie to the idea that humans are solitary creatures and nobody can understand us simply by hearing a song that someone sings that resonates with you and and points out, oh god, I I've lived that too. So these are the things that that we can do as real, you know, artists. Um, I just don't see the value of like, you know, a machine just making random music. I'm gonna tell you, I saw something today, I'm not gonna say what it was because I don't want it to propagate, but I barely caught that it wasn't human. And I it it it it got well, and here's the thing, it got me sonically, I was tricked. What tipped me off and made in the back of my mind the suspicion start to grow is the odd phrasing that it used to describe the song in the YouTube description. And then I said, This seems wrong, and and and like it doesn't, there are words, but they don't mean what they think they mean. And then when I started researching, there was no artist to be discovered. I was like, okay, this might be this might be AI generated, and then they started talking about the I mean, well, there were these incredible vocals on here. I mean, incredible. Like, oh my god, this this person's amazing. Uh the the reins, the power, the clarity, this is this is great. I'm I'm I'm loving this. And then and then what was weird was in the description, didn't mention the vocals at all. They were focusing on a completely different instrument. I'm like, how can this not be like greatest singer ever? Right. And then I like did more research that you know, I should have been doing something else, but I was like, oh, it's AI, that's why it's not it's not real. So so there's all kinds of weird things about it. But I just wanted to get your thoughts on AI and you know, especially in the education space. You know, I wonder I always close with this question because I think it's something we're gonna be wrestling with for a long time. My hope is that the shiny will wear off and people will realize, okay, that was fun for a moment and now let's get back to something real. But you know, who knows?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:50

Yeah, yeah. I I I think that's what's gonna happen. But you know, I I'm like, I want it to stay in its lane. Like if it can remove coughs from an orchestra recording with me not having to spend 15 hours doing that, that would be but generative stuff. I'm like, I'm not here for it. Yeah.

Joey Stuckey 1:23:08

Well, I mean, I love I love uh RX tools, you know. It's like uh I I could I can remove all those plosives.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:14

Yeah, all the key clacks, all the things. Yeah, okay, great.

Joey Stuckey 1:23:18

But but but when when R when when when um when I stope does have that little assistant that pops up, I forget what it's called, but maybe it's like, might I suggest uh where you start your levels? No, you may not.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:29

Right.

Joey Stuckey 1:23:29

I I have put in my 10,000 hours and I don't need your help. What is the is is there anything I've taken off your time, but it's been a joy and a privilege. Is there anything you want to share uh that we have not talked about or anything you want to put out into the universe?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:44

Oh, I probably should have thought about that before, but I I mean we've talked about so much, and I just it's just always a pleasure to you know to talk to you and like it you know, feels like we're just hanging out. It's great.

Joey Stuckey 1:23:56

We are well, we are my friend. You're you're definitely Sympatico. I'm I'm so proud to call you a friend, and just and and I I I tell my I told my wife the other day, I said, you know, um um uh Audrey is like the secret weapon when it comes to getting things done. Like, like like it's so nice to like because we serve on something called the the the Dream Ambassadors, uh, which is a recording academy initiative. And um, you know, we we we are advocating for people that are underrepresented, and uh, and so it's it's a great honor to do that. And sometimes, like, hey Audrey, I need some help getting something done. I'm just you know and I and and man, I I I I it's like calling in the Cavalry. And I was like, wow, that guy done because Audrey did it.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:41

Like sometimes I just know the right people to email. Like, hey, you gotta do this.

Joey Stuckey 1:24:46

I want you to tell now I sent, I know she probably thinks I'm a stalker now, but I sent your ED. I sent your ED for the show chapter, Sarah. I sent her a fan message the other day, uh, an email. And she has not gotten back with me, which but may think she probably thinks I'm stalking her now. But I don't, I was like, I know I don't know you very well, but I am such a fan because she's just so like less, less, less, let's help everybody, let's do wonderful things, just so positive and so much, just so just just a wonderful person that I've only, I mean, you know, we've only met on Zoom. And I was like, I was I I've met another young lady today who cut my hair, and her name was Sarah, and I said, I couldn't help but think about you, and and I couldn't help but tell her, hey, I know another Sarah that's really awesome too. So um she she is absolutely you know of the same uh spirit, uh, you know, just just so interested in being helpful and kind and and and just thoughtful. And these, by the way, friends, are the reasons that the music business is uh something that you can get into and and make a community because I mean the fact that Audrey and I are able to be friends and colleagues and uh all these wonderful things and live halfway across the the country from each other and and and and still collaborate with like-minded people. I mean, there is there is community there. Uh you just have to find it.

unknown 1:26:11

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:12

Absolutely.

Joey Stuckey 1:26:13

But I I I'm always saying one last thing, we put this in the show notes, but um what's the best way for people to find you if they're like, I need to be uh like I need Audrey to help me make my record? Like what's the what's the best way to get a hold of you?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:26

Yeah, uh you can hit me up on Instagram. It's at audio audrey. Oh, I love that. Yeah, thanks. Or uh uh the website for the studio is audioforthearts.com. Um, and there's uh contact information on there.

Joey Stuckey 1:26:41

So well, Audio Audrey sounds like it should be a TV show. Like it sounds like it should be like like for like like like blue, like I'm here for it. I mean that's I mean, and you know, but I did want to say one last thing that I think I want you to shed light on. I just remembered what I what I meant to say earlier. Um you have um a schedule that you stick to, by and large. And you know, you have uh the footer of your email, mine says something stupid. Uh but yours is actually quite well yours is quite quite helpful. Um, because like, hey, uh these are the times I check my emails and uh so that I could dedicate myself to you know what I have what I have going on. I think that um you know, I think that that's a wonderful thing uh to have boundaries in any kind of profession and personal life as well. And I think it I think it helps with like mental health. I I would like to hear very briefly like you know why you decided to do that and like if you think the music industry can be run uh, you know, outside of four in the morning gigs.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:51

Right. Yeah. Oh, that's such an interesting question. So um, yeah, I am because this is something that I love to do so much, it is hard for me to not do audio stuff or music stuff and to just like exist in other capacities. Um and I saw uh this email signature. Um gosh, I don't even remember where it was, probably like in some kind of you know, training thing or like a I I get a lot of like newsletters of things that I'm tangentially interested in. So it might have been something about just like you know, how to set up boundaries for yourself in professional capacities and things. And I was like, oh, I could, I could do that. And so my email signature, um basically I I get just emails constantly. And there's this like corporate culture of if I email you, I get a response in an hour max and I need to have my response. And I I just do not subscribe to that. Like I'm sorry, I'll I'll email you back as soon as I can. But the reality of it is that I I cannot just be the most I cannot be tied to my email all day. I'm in a session. I've got students. I've got, I'm actively, you know, leading a discussion. I I it's just not possible. And because of that, I I at least wanted people to understand that that is what my situation is. So my email signature basically is like, you know, in order to spend time and be present with the people who are paying for my time or who my students, you know, I'm off email until, you know, some specific hours I'll check, I check in the morning. So if you email me um, you know, later in the day, I'm not going to look at it until early the next day. And so I'm very transparent about that. And because I only check it a couple of hours in the morning, it does kind of get backlogged and it it takes me, you know, a day or two, sometimes longer, it depends on what the email is, to respond. And yeah, I just I wanted to be transparent about it. So I I have that little blurb and then my regular kind of like working hours like here's when I'm at school, here is when I am at the studio. These are hours you can book me for, um, just so that people kind of know where I'm at before we even really start to have a conversation. Cause I re I realize like my threshold for when I start to get burnt out is when someone reaches out to me to ask to do a recording and my ri reaction to it is like, oh, okay, not another recording. If I catch myself having that reaction, that's a clue that I am burnt out. And I was noticing that I was having that reaction whenever whenever people would ask for um sessions outside of my working hours. But on my side I hadn't communicated what my working hours were. So it's not reasonable of me to expect that people would know that and to then not try to bum me out and book me during my non-working hours. So I was like here's here's when I'm willing to work you know if you're super cool and I'm really excited about the gig I'll arrange a babysitter and I'll, you know, I'll I'll make it work but it's not a regular thing for you know for weekend's example um you know July was a little different because it's live sound season but um generally um you know I I try to say that for kids in family time.

Joey Stuckey 1:31:14

So well I mean I you know it's interesting because I really do feel like we have gotten so used to being going to have instant communication that it's just really you know it it's it's I I I admire you for doing it. I am not able to do it. I I you know I I uh but um you know I have a little bit of a situation is the fact that I don't have children and my wife is uh uh part of everything I do um she's you know she's a retired midwife so uh she's living with like over 5,000 babies and you know uh and and so she's she's uh you know she she loves she's not a musician but she loves it and so she's kind of the studio manager and gets to like handle the money stuff uh so I could be real sweet and and she can say you owe your money and it's it's great. So good good cop bad cop not not not really but uh all we're all of our clients are like you know by and large very cool people but I I just I saw it I was like you know I I am so I have two different speeds and basically it's full speed ahead and off. Yeah and and and I resent the sleep like I don't as a brain cream survivor I don't mean this in a modelin' way but I am well aware of my finite time and uh I have things to do. It's like so for me I'm just like but you know I'm I'll I I go to work um I because I'm I am this way I go to work uh and before I go to work I listen to music and then I go to work and make music then I come home listen to more music and you know I'm obsessed with it and I'm working you know I I do I do put the phone down at a certain time every night and and get you know do something uh that will allow me to get some good sleep and you know I do have some I do have some habits and some some times that I will not I'll turn my phone and do not disturb and you know all that kind of stuff and I and I I do have some habits that I keep but you have done a a much better job of uh setting boundaries than I have uh thank you I'm still learning too you know I I do still check my email sometimes outside of those hours. Well I mean you know and the thing but I mean I just I really respect it because I'll tell you something when I was young um I would uh you know work you know 16 18 hours a day uh that is just not healthy for anybody um it just it just isn't and and I mean I love music and I I I you know it's what I want to do it's why it's why I get up in the morning but uh you know at the same time you know really eight hours is about all you should do at some point you get hit on a wall diminishing returns um your ears will play tricks on you too you know yeah man you just you know you can't at some point you have to just call it a day and you you know and so I do that I have I have like people like oh can we can we work till midnight nope yeah no I was like man man 10 o'clock I'm out I mean you know like and even that's later that I want to be there um and and so you know I much prefer working like you know 10 to 6 or something like that. I mean I I much prefer that kind of and you know uh but I I I I but by and large I set the schedule go well here's when I'm available and you can like it or not like it and take it or not take it here's what I'm available. But at the same time I mean even though I do that there's a ton of prep work that goes in that's that people never see that but I'm I'm busily you know texting people on my phone like and I I will say in full transparent mode as our last uh thought of the evening uh I will say that there are times where I'm like where I do need an answer quick and I am vexed when people ghost me. I'm like I know you just had your phone in your hand you just texted me. You just texted me and now nothing you just texted me. How can something have changed in 30 seconds anyway yeah yeah yeah yeah for sure I try not to you know if we're actively in a conversation I'll see through the conversation I'm not gonna be like nope it's six o'clock bye yeah yeah yeah yeah no no that's the that's because you're a good girl I appreciate that oh thank you but but but but uh also you know um but I I I do uh I do I did want to highlight that because I think you are so wise to to set those boundaries and to recognize in yourself when you've lost efficiency and you know when you need to take a break. And I think that's more people should do that. So I I applaud you for it. I didn't want to end on that. It is always a pleasure and a privilege to do these podcasts. I always walk away uh with new ideas, new thoughts uh which you know may or may not be dangerous. Um but but always a pleasure and you can check out all the amazing guests we have uh wherever you consume your podcast or by visiting the handy URL www.stuckonsound.com